Over the last few years, I’ve been doing more interviews with developers I respect, and it has been challenging with timezones, schedules, and more. One developer has been on my list for many years. In fact, I’ve wanted to interview Santa Ragione before I even joined TouchArcade back when I played some of the early games from them. Things finally worked out over the last few months, and I got to chat with Pietro Righi Riva of Santa Ragione about their game design philosophy, platforms, mobile releases, Steam Deck, curation, coffee, and much more.

TouchArcade (TA): Tell us a little bit about yourself and what you do at Santa Ragione.

Pietro Righi Riva (PR): I’m the co-founder and studio director of Santa Ragione, a game production studio based in Milan. Since we started in 2010, I’ve been involved in designing, directing, and producing our games, FOTONICA, MirrorMoon EP, Wheels of Aurelia, and Saturnalia. My role encompasses overseeing the creative direction, the planning, and ensuring that our projects ship! Lately, I’ve acted as executive producer on our co-production projects, such as Milky Way Prince and Mediterranea Inferno, both directed by Lorenzo Redaelli.

TA: I view Santa Ragione a lot like Simogo where I adore how different each game feels, but every release is worth my time and money. Can you give us a glimpse into your workflow on approaching different projects as a designer?

PRR: Our approach to game design is quite iterative and exploratory. We start with an experimental concept that guides all design and technology decisions. Each project begins from the notes for ideas we took during the development of the previous games. These can be about themes, mechanics, or setting, and we try to understand what would fit together in interesting ways. We prioritize innovation, which often leads us to blend genres and experiment with different storytelling techniques. Finally, we try to increase the design challenge complexity from game to game, which is not necessarily a thing I would recommend!

TA: In addition to your games available on various commercial storefronts, you’ve done many experimental releases like tributes to video rentals, adaptations of novels, VR projects, music exploration games, and more. What learnings from these games have you brought to the commercial releases Santa Ragione works on over the years?

PRR: Our experimental projects allow us to test new ideas and mechanics in a low-risk environment. They serve as a sandbox where we can play with concepts that might later be refined and incorporated into our commercial titles. For instance, the procedural generation techniques and non-linear storytelling we experimented with in smaller projects significantly influenced the development of the dialogue system used in Wheels of Aurelia and Saturnalia. As for my solo work, I like to tackle things that I feel do not align with our commercial portfolio, so they are more like an exhaust valve for creativity.

TA: Before getting into more games, I wanted to briefly touch on your PhD thesis from about 10 years ago covering the exploration of “play as a process and the limited role of the designer". Can you tell us a little bit about that?

PRR: My PhD thesis (“Designing Playful Artifacts”) focused on the idea that play is an emergent process and that the designer’s role should be to create systems that allow for a wide range of player interactions and outcomes. This perspective encourages us to design games that are more about providing a framework for players to create their own experiences rather than dictating a specific narrative path. It was a challenge to define design patterns that drive player behavior without resorting to challenges or rewards. To allow this approach to work, designers need to be less controlling of what can happen within their games, which in turn need to be “breakable" in order to allow for unique experiences (and hence rely on player collaboration to work).

TA: Santa Ragione aims to influence game design through new genres and to continue the tradition of Italian design. Anyone playing your games can see the former, but I have been surprised at how little people talk about the latter when I discuss your releases with them. I’d love to know how you approach bringing Italian design into your projects.

PRR: I come from an academic background rooted in the culture of Italian design. To me, designing is part of a creative continuum that predates the industrialization process and extends to the present day. In this flow, we start from something that already exists, and transform it through different media. In that sense, we try to steal as much as possible from Italian fashion, architecture and industrial design and use those media to talk about Italian society and politics, participating in the continuum mentioned above.

TA: You’ve worked with many folks over the years for your own projects and Santa Ragione. Can you give us a game development anecdote that has stuck with you years later from working with someone specific?

PRR: I’ll tell you one thing I’m ashamed of. When we made the MirrorMoon demo, as part of the 2012 Global Game Jam, we had no intention to turn it into a commercial release. Then, the demo was nominated for the 2013 Independent Games Festival, which in turn meant that we could publish the game on Steam. This was before Steam was open to anyone for publishing, but we knew that was going to change soon, so, to optimize visibility, we had to turn the demo into a full game in the shortest possible amount of time. That summer, Paolo, Nicolò and I worked for 16+ hours a day for three months, which was an absolutely horrid experience, and made us swear never to crunch again, a promise which we’ve maintained to this day.

TA: I discovered Santa Ragione years ago before I even joined TouchArcade with a story about Fotonica on iOS. A lot has changed since for Santa Ragione’s games and platforms. How has it been for you working with different platforms over the years?

PRR: There hasn’t been much of a difference to be honest, the biggest change across all platforms is the shift away from human curation, and, on mobile, the reduced interest in premium titles.

TA: PC is obviously the focus, but it is great to see more games come to consoles like the recent console ports of Mediterranea Inferno which I loved on Switch. Are there any plans to bring older titles to consoles and some of the newer releases to mobile?

PRR: We are always exploring opportunities to bring our games to new platforms. Our latest games have all been published for all major platforms, even if we temporarily stopped bringing our games to mobile, due to the shrinking opportunities for premium games mentioned above. We are currently evaluating the feasibility of porting some of our older titles to these platforms, but we’d like to find an experienced partner to revisit those games.

TA: Given how varied Santa Ragione’s games are, I find it hard to pick a favorite because I want people to experience them all, but I will say that the constant throughout is fantastic and elegant interface design. How do you approach giving what most developers neglect so much care and character?

PRR: We approach it with the same attention to detail as any other part of the game, ensuring that it is intuitive, aesthetically pleasing, and most importantly coherent with itself and with the rest of the game. We believe that a well-designed interface can significantly elevate the perceived production value of a title, and I personally have a background in interaction design that helps me maintain a high standard when directing and producing games. Over the years I collaborated with board game publisher Horrible Guild, producing/directing their digital releases (Potion Explosion, Railroad Ink Challenge, The King’s Dilemma, and more), and that was an opportunity to solve hard usability challenges in adapting board game mechanics to digital interfaces that offer minimal amount of friction.

TA: I first discovered Saturnalia in an older EDGE issue, 357 I believe. Having played it finally, it is one of my favorite recent survival horror games. What were your inspirations in the genre for this game?

PRR: Saturnalia draws inspiration from a variety of sources, including traditional Sardinian folklore, German expressionist cinema and theater, and Dreamcast-era survival horror games like D2 and Illbleed. Visually, the game takes cues from the tradition of Italian comic books (like Dylan Dog) and the classics of Giallo cinema, such as the works of Mario Bava and Dario Argento.

TA: As I mentioned above, PC is the focus for game launches, and while I used to wait for console ports of indie titles before, with the Steam Deck, I can just play them on a portable day one. A lot of your games are either Steam Deck Verified or Playable. Have you been doing any specific work on optimizing games for the system?

PRR: It turns out that if you take in consideration some accessibility principles when designing an interface (subtitles/text size, support for multiple screen rations, support for controllers, key rebinding, quality settings to support older machines, etc) you can get Steam Deck Verified without any additional work!

TA: Recently, we had the sad closure of Die Gute Fabrik and you brought up the end of curation and the rise of algorithmic sales optimization. Getting eyes on your games is obviously hard in the current time, so how do you handle getting more attention to these projects? Having coverage in places like EDGE magazine who have reviewed your games before most recently both Saturnalia and Mediterranea Inferno obviously is great.

PRR: This is THE QUESTION. Either we figure it out or the medium will stagnate. Innovation is extremely rare in AAA because of the financial risks involved, and if the only independent work that succeeds is rooted in traditional genres and visuals we will keep playing the same games over and over for the foreseeable future. I don’t have a solution unfortunately, but if anyone does, please get in touch!

TA: Can you tell us a little bit about Horses, your next project.

PRR: HORSES is another title we are co-producing. Directed and created by Andrea Lucco Borlera, it is a perfectly normal adventure game set in a perfectly normal horse farm. I recommend watching a trailer. Unfortunately I can’t share details about platforms or release date yet, but we’d love to do a preview with you when we are ready!

TA: What’s next for Santa Ragione in 2024 alongside Horses?

PRR: In addition to HORSES, we have two new projects for which we are currently seeking funding. I can’t reveal much about them yet, but you can expect the same proportional increase in complexity and ambition that you have seen from game to game in our portfolio.

TA: What do you think of the current state of console platforms for discoverability and also how they compare to what we saw happen with mobile years ago?

PRR: As mentioned above, discoverability on console platforms has become increasingly challenging due to the reliance on automatic and algorithmic “curation". It’s true that there are way more games now, especially since (luckily) retrocompatibility of users’ digital libraries has become an industry standard. I don’t know that there’s necessarily a parallel with the mobile market, but for sure both need better systems for users to discover things they might like.

TA: What are your thoughts on gaming subscriptions like Netflix and Apple Arcade or even Game Pass and PS+ for indie developers?

PRR: They are double-edged swords. On one had, it’s the last bastion of human curation for the medium, literally the only space in which humans are still making decisions, and that can potentially curate a more diverse, more interesting selection of games than what you would find in the various glorified best-seller lists divided by tag that digital stores boast as automated, per-customer curation. On the other hand, in ecosystems in which these subscriptions have succeeded, they have effectively reduced overall unit sales, giving platform holders an even greater monopolistic advantage, where they can undercut publishers and offer lower and lower one-time fees to selected games.

TA: What do you think are the most important platforms and storefronts for indie developers to launch on today?

PRR: The most important platform will be one that doesn’t exist yet, one where humans curate selections of games catered to real audiences, and hopefully audiences that do not yet play video games. We need a platform that is owned by the publishers and the developers and not by actors that need to maximize short term profit at the expense of the growth of the medium. As per today, the most important platform, whichever is willing to pay in advance for development costs, reduces developers’ risk and allows them to work on a new project.

TA: Are there any plans to do any merchandise for your games or studio this year?

PRR: We are exploring the possibility of creating merchandise. While we don’t have specific announcements at this moment, we are looking into collaborations with artists and designers to see if there’s anything interesting we can make.

Note: The game is not up for pre-order and is sold out, but the image above is the official art from Limited Run Games for its physical release.

TA: How was it working with Limited Run Games and should we expect some more physical releases?

PRR: We are very grateful to LRG for producing the Saturnalia’s edition, which is something a lot of fans had asked for. It was a very pleasant and smooth experience, I’m just sad we couldn’t get an Xbox version produced! We would LOVE to have more physical releases, especially for Milky Way Prince and Mediterranea Inferno which have truly fantastic soundtracks that would be wonderful to bundle in some sort of special edition. Nothing to announce yet, but we are actively pitching this idea to prospective partners. We’ll definitely let you know when and if we have news on this!

TA: Do you have a message for your fans reading this?

PRR: To our fans, I want to express my deepest gratitude for your support and interest in our quirky experiments. We have a nice and welcoming Discord community that you are absolutely invited to join, we love to discuss design and production topics with fans and we are there for any questions you might have. I also have an appeal: make sure to review our games on your platform of choice, where available, and to tell your friends about our games, it truly helps a lot! And finally, to those that cannot afford our games but want to play them, you can wait for one of the frequent sales we run and, if prices are still too high for you, please feel free to pirate without feeling guilty, you can always buy the games to support us at a later time when you can afford it (just don’t buy from shady Steam key resellers! When in doubt, feel free to email us).

TA: Now for the most important question. How do you like your coffee? (Go into as much detail as possible re: beans, format, etc).

PRR: Well, I have to confess something, I’m not a coffee snob at all. I actually use a coffee capsule machine for convenience. No fancy espresso machines or artisanal brewing methods. I prefer lighter roasts and I like to add a splash of soy milk. Sorry!

I’d like to thank Pietro Righi Riva for their time and help with this interview.

You can keep up with all our interviews here including our recent ones with Peter ‘Durante’ Thoman about PH3 and Falcom here, M2 discussing shmups and more here, Digital Extremes for Warframe mobile, Team NINJA, Sonic Dream Team, Hi-Fi Rush, Pentiment, and more. As usual, thanks for reading.