Can't make out the logic in your argument. Freedom in what sense? We can still be free without sin being created in the first place. The concept of sin is also illogical when you think about it. And when you say 'we chose to sin' .. don't say 'we' cause I have nothing to do with you and I never did choose to sin nor do I care about sin. To answer the original poster, I have no faith. Morality is something that we, as a species, have developed over thousands of years and as society, we make laws to uphold as well as teach our current moral values to each other. You don't need religion. The argument that you can't be a moral person without religion is ridiculous. Think about it, in any Judeo-Christian-Islam scriptures you can find so many violence, genocide, racism, et cetera, but most people choose to focus on the good stuff, cherry-picking the good ones and ignoring the bad ones. Isn't that sign that you have morality to begin with? So yeah, I'm happy being a non-theist and on personal level, the reason why is because I read the history of civilization, the bible, and the news and they seem to point that religion was and always has been a man's creation. Pardon my English, I'm Indonesian.
I found this. "An honest god is the noblest work of man. ... God has always resembled his creators. He hated and loved what they hated and loved and he was invariably found on the side of those in power. ... Most of the gods were pleased with sacrifice, and the smell of innocent blood has ever been considered a divine perfume" -Robert G. Ingersoll This one is good too. "A belief which leaves no place for doubt is not a belief; it is a superstition." -Jose Bergamin My favorite one. "You know your god is man-made when he hates all the same people you do." -[from Usenet]
This debate been going on for.....a very, very long time...centuries even. But would like to say that we would have been just puppets on strings without freedom of choice. We all have this freedom of choice, to choose our paths even if we realize it or not. We all have a personal choice in all we do, even in not choosing to believe in God. Wasn't going to get into this but... God doesn't exist? I used to think so and was just as much as an advocate on not believing as I've read within this thread (some) and even used some of the reasonings posted as well. But too many "coincidences" exists that add up to some sort of intelligent design that made all of this. Think about it, step back and think of why is the earth just set on our solar system for a perfect setting for us to live? Why do trees/plants produce the very thing we need to breathe? Think of the molecules/atoms? What type of design could have made this? All this and much, much more. All of it purely coincidently? Hardly. And then theres the part of knowing Christ. One thing about Christianity (religion) is that its never ignored and its reflective within this thread. This is the part within us that is searching the spiritual side of us (even if we don't realize it). Not trying to come off as trying to convince anyone. Just stating a personal observation from a once non-believer to a believer. Only within each one of us can we truly be honest and decide what to believe. On a side note: A Christian will be put under a microscope in all he does by others. Its not easy being a Christian so when I hear its for weak minded people, I laugh...(hah) Believing in God doesn't make one perfect (just forgiven) but sin is realized through spiritual eyes more so than not believing. There is a difference and only when one can believe this than its understandable. Sorry but its the hard truth.
I'm sorry Coldar, but I'm going to refute some of your statements... Coincidence happens, no doubt, however, they are just mathematical probabilities. Moving on to the question about why the earth is where it is, well, instead of asking that question, shouldn't you be asking, what if the earth is NOT where it is. Plants and trees produce oxygen that supports life on earth, however it is very toxic to early life-forms on earth (just so you know). Funny you should mention the word 'design' because that makes me think that you actually belief in Intelligent Design / Creationism. I.D. is known to be a distortion of truth and facts brought about by science. Man living with dinosaurs? The earth is 6,000 years old? Makes me sad knowing that there are people who would believe in something without question. Agreed, but there can only be one truth though. One truth about biology, one truth about history, etc. That's the problem and that's the reason why people turn to agnosticism or even atheism. Because only without being confined by religious doctrines can one look for those truths themselves and judge with reason and logic. No it's not true, Christianity falls under the category of 'easy' religion. No need to fast, no need to check for kosher/halal tags, no need to pray 5 times each day, no need to go on a pilgrimage, going to the church is not compulsory, no death threats upon leaving or converting to other religion, has lots of holidays, holy book is translated into almost every single language known to man, and the list goes on. Regarding sin, if believing in God doesn't make one perfect and just forgiven, well the question is forgiven for what reason? What (let's say a baby) could possibly have done that they need to be forgiven? The sin of a couple living thousands of years ago? Doesn't sound right. Moreover, God came to earth, took a human form, got tortured and crucified, and for what? To do away the sins of the entire human race? Why do we need anyone to be sacrificed for any reason at all? Now you know why some say that Christianity is for the weak-minded.
I would just like to comment on this in particular quote. I disagree. You say it can't be coincidence that we are able to live in almost perfect conditions. Well, think about it. The universe is made up of millions upon millions of galaxies (number unknown) which then consist of even more planets ex cetera, so the chances of having at least on of those countless opportunities of life perfect for human (or any other) life is extremely likely. Have you seen that Darren Brown show on Horse Racing (The System). If not you should, and I feel it demonstrates a perfect example of what I am trying to explain.
yongkykun: I'm sorry Coldar, but I'm going to refute some of your statements... Coincidence happens, no doubt, however, they are just mathematical probabilities. Makes me sad knowing that there are people who would believe in something without question. Coldar: Looking at it scientifically?/mathematically I see. (sorry for the way my answers are set up/pc is messing w/ me) I actually had many questions to come to the answer. Yes, design was a word I typed cringing but used it regardless. I'm not perfect. ------------------------------------------------ No it's not true, Christianity falls under the category of 'easy' religion. No need to fast, no need to check for kosher/halal tags, no need to pray 5 times each day, no need to go on a pilgrimage, going to the church is not compulsory, no death threats upon leaving or converting to other religion, has lots of holidays, holy book is translated into almost every single language known to man, and the list goes on. Coldar: Far from true. It isn't the outward signs that we see by man but I believe its the inner self that is the true waring ground on why it is not an easy religion for Christianity. To try and do the right thing in ones self is truly an effort that is beyond what I'm able to do on my own at times. Not saying trying to be perfect but just trying to do good for the most part can be an extreme undertaking when doing it on our own and that is why spiritual help is needed. We live in an age of spiritual warfare (getting deep here) and its set within ourselves on how we view and act to combat this. Not to gain credit points but seeing a bigger picture as to know that spiritual grounds are at play (sorry of pun) and its all around us. Only through spiritual eyes (believing in God) can this be seen. Sounds pretty far out, huh? Kind of like spiritual binoculars, you see things alot more closer and clearer. -------------------------------------------- Regarding sin, if believing in God doesn't make one perfect and just forgiven, well the question is forgiven for what reason? What (let's say a baby) could possibly have done that they need to be forgiven? The sin of a couple living thousands of years ago? Doesn't sound right. Moreover, God came to earth, took a human form, got tortured and crucified, and for what? To do away the sins of the entire human race? Why do we need anyone to be sacrificed for any reason at all?[/QUOTE] Coldar: We lived in a perfect world once. A long time ago. Through our descendants we fell into sin by basically our own self centered reasoning and thoughts (going back to our inner self, the true waring ground). Can you imagine living in a world without sin? Can't comprehend or hard too, isn't it. Well, that thought is from God and beyond what we are able to understand but through the spirit then can be known and believed. We fell from this and for this reason we are being forgiven. All sins past and yet to come I might add. Your last question: The reason is to have a forever living spiritual life. Or once this earthly carcass is tossed. Its goes back to the bible actually on having a crucification. You've just got to read the book if haven't to know what I'm referring to. But yea, some one (or animal earlier) had to die. Thanks for your response, it was interesting. But I've basically stopped debating while ago and it could go on forever so just leaving it as it is.
I understand your logical way of reasoning and it can be convincing to many. We just have two ways of looking at the glass so to speak. I'm in hopes we can still live on the earth together.
I've thought about this before. You think this is a huge coincidence because you're alive here, right? But this is the only place you could be alive for light years. You can't think about the perfect placement of this world from any other perspective, since there are no other perspectives since no other lifeforms have found us. The statistical chance of this world being perfect for life in tiny, but in an infinite universe it is bound to happen. Do you got what I'm trying to get at?
Hey man It really doesn't matter what religion your from and I guess you have the right to believe in what you want to believe, as long as you don't shove it in my face.
Yeah, infinite universe = infinite possibilities. The fact something did happen was inevitable. Plus if God had done it, he'd probably have done it more than once. We'd have an entire solar system capable of maintaining life, not just one single "lucky" planet.
