TouchArcade and the self promotion forum rules.

Discussion in 'Site Feedback and News' started by Eli, Jul 21, 2015.

  1. Eli

    Eli ᕕ┌◕ᗜ◕┐ᕗ
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    Hey guys,

    So something we've been talking about quite a bit behind the scenes at TouchArcade is how we can modify/rewrite the existing forum rules to make a bit more sense to the way the App Store and the TouchArcade community works in 2015. Back when we started out, we were incredibly strict about keeping self promotion on lockdown. It was vital to building the community, as strict enforcement of no self promotion meant that all the people who were looking to discuss iOS games did it here instead of their contribution to threads being links to their own blogs or other places that fractured the community. Additionally, not allowing self promotion turned the people who otherwise would just use TouchArcade to spam links to their blogs into people who are now a valuable part of many thread discussions. Enforcing no self promotion (obviously) worked great, as TouchArcade has continued to be the place to discuss iOS games.

    When people started posting videos on the forums, we started to look the other way on this as it's sort of nice to see a video of a game and iOS gameplay videos were pretty scarce. Unfortunately, the side effect this has had over the years is we now have people who do absolutely nothing but post their own videos and promote their YouTube channels. Additionally, iOS videos are no longer scarce at all, and now we have dozens of people whose entire presence on the forums is exclusively dedicated to posting their own videos. Some threads you'll have 4-5 videos before a single meaningful text post, which is making TouchArcade less of a discussion forum and more a ... YouTube aggregation site.

    To back things up a bit, other large communities on the internet like Reddit exist on a 10% rule, where only 10% of the things you post can be your own content. This, similar to our banning blog links so long ago, has fostered a community that leans more on community and discussion over people just dropping links to everything they're doing. Here's Reddit's take on what constitutes spam-

    Now, before you read too much into this, I'm not saying that the people who post videos are spammers... But the people who only post their videos potentially aren't really adding much to our community in any meaningful way. I mean, most gameplay videos now are 30+ minutes long, and the people who post them obviously have at least played the game for that long. Doesn't it seem like you want people who have played the game to be discussing it? The problem is, they largely aren't. If you look through the posts of our prolific video posters, it's pages and pages and pages of YouTube links, and their other posts typically are low content "Looks cool" or similar to get a post near the beginning of a thread to later edit a video into.

    I mean, anyone can go to YouTube and search for a game video and post it, I guess from where I'm sitting I'd rather the people who were doing this be members of our community who are picking out cool videos or otherwise interesting things then sticking around to discuss them instead of "find the thread on TouchArcade and post a link" being what you do after your YouTube video is processed. Of course people are always going to be able to post whatever relevant videos they want, but doesn't it seem a little weird to allow people to continue to utilize our community exclusively as a way to pad YouTube views and channel subscriptions?

    Anyway, before we do anything drastic I figured I'd just open up a discussion inside of our community here to try to get to the bottom of what people who use our forums the most find to be valuable. Doesn't it seem like TouchArcade would be a better place if dropping every video link you upload also means you need to contribute and participate in our community beyond just spamming videos?
     
  2. ashmike3

    ashmike3 Well-Known Member

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    I do enjoy the videos, but the discussions and feedback are more helpful in the long run for me.

    I will usually read through the comments and see what issues, if any, people are running into and see how much they are enjoying the gameplay. I will go back to the videos if I am on the fence, so they are helpful, but more helpful when they include some thoughts. I've never really thought of them as spam when they don't include comments though, but I've never bought off just a video without reading some comments.

    In addition to deciding what to purchase, alot of the benefit from TA, for me, comes post purchase. I tend to get in pretty early for certain genres; memebers sharing tips and strategies are great, the current Warhammer, Deathwatch thread is a good example where people are sharing images of teams, builds and draws from cards etc.

    I've clicked links to some memebers sites when they offer game reviews or rankings of genres, things like that, but usually they have a history of contribution and similar taste that makes me interested in checking out their site.
     
  3. Blackharon

    Blackharon Well-Known Member

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    Videos are usually more helpful than the first few pages of 'not available bug again QQ' and 'what's the install size' questions without any answers. In fact, I come to the first pages of the TA thread rather than head to YouTube to see the action, cause then I can be sure it's not ad related.

    I hope it's deemed 'WorkingAsIntended'
     
  4. Eli

    Eli ᕕ┌◕ᗜ◕┐ᕗ
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    #4 Eli, Jul 21, 2015
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2015
    But is having all the video posters racing to post their videos in every thread better than those people contributing to the discussions with their expertise having actually played those games? I'm not saying we shouldn't have videos, I'm saying if you're going to utilize the TouchArcade community to drive views to your channel that shouldn't be your primary use for the site. I feel like if we modified the rules to have a reddit-like 10% rule, there'd still be people posting videos since we're a lucrative community to content producers, we'd just ask them to participate and be held to the same standards as everyone else in the forums. If all you did was come to every game thread and drop a link to your blog with your first impressions without participating on any level, we'd ban you. Why should this be different?

    Ideally I'd like to crack down on zero-content posting like people asking the same questions over and over too, it's not an either or kind of thing.
     
  5. Elsa

    Elsa Well-Known Member

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    #5 Elsa, Jul 21, 2015
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2015
    Perhaps those who post only videos think that this is the only way they can contribute to the community.

    Either way, I rather see a few videos on the first page than 3 pages of "what's the gameplay like?" and "gameplay vid pls". With that said, yes they are sometimes very similar and redundant. I see no harm in removing a few of those.

    I don't see the video as spam or "just posting a link" though. I see it more like a quote from a review blog, if I go by your analogy.
     
  6. klink

    klink 👮 Spam Police 🚓

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    People posting videos without any sort of comments or commentary does nothing for me. Like you mentioned people can go to YouTube for that kind of stuff.
     
  7. Anonomation

    Anonomation 👮 Spam Police 🚓

    For me, it's a problem when there's already like two or three videos up and someone posts another like I'm not gonna watch one of the more trusted posters that frequent the site.
     
  8. Eli

    Eli ᕕ┌◕ᗜ◕┐ᕗ
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    #8 Eli, Jul 21, 2015
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2015
    That's kind of the problem, we're just collecting more and more and more of them. 99% of the time they're just straight direct capture gameplay video without any kind of commentary and playing through the exact same tutorial. At this point, the camcorder videos where they actually show how you play a game feel more interesting. When we've got four people racing to post the exact same video, what's even the point? It'd be infinitely more useful if instead of a video being posted 30 seconds after a thread goes live, one our community members who are always around and super active simply searched YouTube instead and posted one they thought was cool.

    The tutorial videos though are just really sterile, pretty boring, and don't add anything to the overall discussion which is kind of the entire point of a forum. Just to reiterate, I'm not talking of getting rid of people posting videos, but rather, if you're going to drive traffic to your videos you need to stick around and join the discussion.
     
  9. SwipeNova

    SwipeNova Well-Known Member

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    I agree that only posting videos and not take part of the game discussion is very anti-community thing to do and needs to change.

    and yeah tutorial videos has no place on this forum.. people know where to find them..
     
  10. metalcasket

    metalcasket Moderator
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    #10 metalcasket, Jul 21, 2015
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2015
    I don't mind that there's more than one person posting videos, but that (quoted above) is exactly the problem I have with the whole thing: It's always the same damn video. We have a major community here, with some members who (as mentioned already) thrive on the whole gameplay video thing, so why don't these video "posters" take advantage of that by actually making different videos?

    Of course there's always that race to be the first one to post and at the same time it certainly seems like a hassle to actually...you know, put an effort into making these videos, but who the hell watches them anymore when even the splash screen (or whatever it's called) is literally the exact same thing and the only difference between one video and the next is the name of the user on Game Center?

    If these guys would actually take 5 minutes to show something other than the very same opening 30 minutes of the game...screw the fact that they don't do anything but post videos...at least they'd be doing the community something useful.
     
  11. Jayenkai

    Jayenkai Well-Known Member

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    Self Promotion vs Me : The Oddity

    Hello, I'm Jayenkai.
    I create. And I create a lot..
    I make music. I make graphics and sound. I write a daily blog. I draw a pixelarf doodle every day.
    And I make games.
    I make A LOT of games!!

    With all the things I do, I find it hard to interact very much. I spend time on Twitter, and try to respond to any tweets. I usually respond to most emails, and over on my own forum, I try my best to look like I'm paying attention
    But it's hard, with so much stuff going on, and all the content creation happening at the same time.

    I don't frequent TouchArcade as much as I should, and whenever I do, it's usually to stay in contact with all the people who are enjoying (or otherwise!) my games.
    I'd love to apologise that I'm rarely here, and very rarely interacting, but that's one of the things that happen when you've got so much other stuff going on at the same time.

    I do "spam" here. But when I post, I at least try to make it a handwritten post, and give the post my all. It's the least I can do. If I simply came here and copy/pasted PR gubbins then that would IMO be a horrific thing to do.
    .. It probably still looks like spam, but I do my best, and I hope that people who do read my posts can tell that I did the right thing.
    Maybe!

    I can't hang around on Reddit.
    I have daily blogs to link to, daily pics to link to, frequent Soundcloud music to link to, frequent games to link to, and their 10% rule makes that impossible.
    I've put myself into a corner. I work so hard, and do so much, that if I dare talk about it, I'm flagged as spam.
    I try not to be, but I'm very well aware that that's what I am.

    If that rule were here. Well, then I'd better say my goodbyes before I get banned!

    Video content generators might find themselves down the same rabbit hole. It's easy to bury yourself inside your own work.
    I feel a personal case-by-case anti-spam rule would be much more fair. If someone's at least bothering to interact with the community, taking game suggestions from the forums, that kind of thing, then that should count towards something.

    As a personal preference, and a minor rant, I think that people who post "here is this game : footage" are infinitely worse than people who post "This is me playing this game. These are my thoughts. This is my experience."
    A video LetsPlay should be more about the player, and less about the game. We can all play the game. Show us YOU..
     
  12. hellscaretaker

    hellscaretaker Well-Known Member

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    #12 hellscaretaker, Jul 21, 2015
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2015
    Well the flip side of this coin is there those of us that do commenty/reviews/previews videos on the games we play. Are you saying now you like to see more of these as the general impression I got over the years this was a big fat no no.
     
  13. Echoseven

    Echoseven Moderator
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    @Jayenkai

    For the record, I don't think any of what you've mentioned is considered spam. I'm sure most (if not all) moderators would agree. Developers are a special case too, specifically because self-promotion and what they've been up to is what people want to hear.


    And your last paragraph is exactly what we're talking about. Check the front page of many threads for examples. It's all dry "gameplay footage", three or four times over.
     
  14. Wicked8146

    Wicked8146 Well-Known Member
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    #14 Wicked8146, Jul 21, 2015
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2015
    I've never really thought about it until you posted this but now that you mention it, there does seem to be the same 2-3 people that simply reply, and quickly, to new game threads simply with videos. Honestly, it doesn't really bother me and sometimes I even click and watch them, but it just occurred to me that they are trying to use the community to generate profit on their channels. That's very entrepreneurial of them, however, I would rather they add some impressions or commentary along with their videos. Maybe a rule where gameplay videos must come with legit impressions would be good, although that may be a pain to enforce.

    TL;DR: Require text along with videos.
     
  15. ashmike3

    ashmike3 Well-Known Member

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    I think the mobcrush stream will be replacing the videos for me. I just saw one pop up on the Star Wars uprising thread, but no need to view since carter streamed earlier.
     
  16. hellscaretaker

    hellscaretaker Well-Known Member

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    Modcrush is by no means prefect with it buffering or not working full stop.
     
  17. metalcasket

    metalcasket Moderator
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    Why would you want to crush the mods? :(

    But yeah, it doesn't work for me AT ALL.
     
  18. SwipeNova

    SwipeNova Well-Known Member

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    Get a better Internet. Not Mobcrush's fault
     
  19. psj3809

    psj3809 Moderator

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    I used to like the videos but often they tend to be quite sneaky (at least one guy is whos on a final warning), they post something quickly like 'nice game' and then that 'reserves' the spot for them to edit the post and add their video later. Thats against the rules but still seems to happen from time to time.

    Do enjoy seeing gameplay videos but getting a bit much now when some threads have 3 videos on the first page as they're all battling to get theirs posted early
     
  20. Echoseven

    Echoseven Moderator
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    Maybe we should put in a two-video rule.

    If the front page of a thread already has two embedded videos, you can't post yours. Sorry. Or hell, make it one video (and an OFFICIAL trailer). If it's page two or further, it's fair game.
     

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