Here's a rant... It might be better if there were some objective way of identifying "indie" games. I noticed there's an "Indie Game" wikipedia page (Link), which basically says there's no universal "indie game" definition but indie games aren't financed or controlled by publishers. So many "fan favorite" and "indie" games on iOS are pushed by large publishers like Crescent Moon, Chillingo, FDG Entertainment, BulkyPix, Rovio, etc, etc that it's hard to tell if those games are really "indie" or perhaps just smaller scale by virtue of mobile platform. Especially on iOS, one of my pet peeves is how publishers seem to swoop in an claim credit for some smaller teams' efforts exploiting the actual developers' hope of making it rich. In some cases I know the publisher can contribute tangible assets to the release, which might further skewer any claim of "indie" status (i.e. Crescent Moon rebuilt the art design in Aralon). One of my, perhaps faulty, perceptions is that the concept of indie gaming may be more of a myth than a reality in several immediate favorites, like Oceanhorn, unless we start enlarging loopholes. Maybe it's unreasonable but I'd submit that an indie game is one where the developer self-publishes on a limited basis (say, only releasing games that individual had a direct part in and no more than 3-5 per year). That's a nice safe guard, genius idea.
+1 I hate that. Whenever I review games, I always give the developer the credit (Steampunk Tower was developed by Dreamgate, published by Chillingo; Mimpi was developed by Silicon Jelly, yet it's "by" Crescent Moon on the App Store). But back to the debate, it's tough. It's very tough. I'm extremely active in the NeoGAF Indie community, and what defines an indie is something that is asked and questioned regularly. As much as I'd like to make it a straight small-teams, published directly kind of poll, I think that would do a disservice to the IOS indie developers who had to go through a publisher like Crescent Moon. And personally I wouldn't place CM alongside other "big" publishers like Chillingo or EA.
Here are my nominations, for now (will edit this post if any change): Quadropus Rampage [Butterscotch Shenanigans] Kingturn Underworld [Mangobile] Dungeon Plunder [Dominic Duchesne] 9th Dawn [Marmalade Technologies Inc (?)] QuestLord [Lava Level] Dungelot [Red Winter Software] Draw Wars [Evil Indie Games] Indigo Lake [3 Cubes Research] Heroes of Loot [Orange Pixel] Alternates include Gurk III [Larva Labs], WazHack [Warwick Allison, which I think of as a PC port], Crazy Bill [Ivanovich Games, but I'm not sure I see IG as "indie").
I personally think to even make this fair, all publishers should not be included. How can Chillingo games be allowed when they are owned by EA? That is a massive advantage in pr and budgets, no matter what. I propose that only games not published by any publisher be allowed.
I'll go along with what the majority appears to agree on, but I tend to agree with Bronxta on this. There's a lot of indie developers that hook up with a big publisher for the exposure. To me, that doesn't make them any less indie. They still may be a one man effort or a small group. The publisher's decision to pick up the game may just show that they see the potential in a game. That devs still made the game with their own talent and, likely, a limited budget. Keep the conversation flowing, but I'm not sure it's going to be cut and dry. There are obvious games that aren't indie like Deus Ex. But when it comes down to it, I think maybe the idea of someone objecting to a game and stating their reasoning may be the only way to do this. Then let the community decide if it deserves to be in the poll. I'm off to bed but will be interested to read any more feedback or fine tuning suggestions.
Maybe I'm wrong, but I was kind of hoping people will -- in this poll -- judge a game on its merits as an indie game regardless of its publisher. But if the decision is to rule out games based on publisher, that's what we'll have to do. Even that could get hairy. Bulkypix is another big publisher, so would they not be allowed?
+1 to the highlighted part. Would hate to see the likes of Penumbear, Orborun, Type: Rider or Dead Effect be left out of the possibility to be included here just because the devs are so indie they cant afford to publish their games on their own and instead do it with Bulkypix. EDIT: ...and it just occured to me that one of my picks was published by Chillingo: Icycle.
I'm with awp on this one. Just because a game was published by CM or Bulkypix, doesn't mean it wasn't fully developed by indie devs or with indie ideals (if that makes any sense). What I understand, more often than not, going through a publisher is more to help with exposure and marketing and getting attention for your game, rather than having a hand in development. Is Hotline Miami still an indie because it was published by Devolver Digital but developed by the two-man Dennaton Games? Or sticking with IOS, is Penumbear an indie even though it was published by Bulkypix, but made by the small studio Taco Graveyard?
I vote to disqualify large publisher drive games - those games are controlled by publishers with larger scale resources, not developers. I can see the other point of view and if nothing else appreciate you guys entertaining my banter, I'm really interested in creative control and economics so it's interesting discussion. In many cases even seemingly smaller publishers may get resources from the publisher beyond what is afforded by a single (or small team of) developer(s). Again with Crescent Moon as an example, it's not simple copy/paste name stamping to publish... CM also seems to specialize in improving art design of products. If nothing else Crescent Moon does provide consulting and beta test arrangements... as is likely the case with most "small" publishers; further blurring the line between what is indie or not. Often it might be unclear to us how much a publisher has contributed, but the publisher helps in ways more than name recognition alone. In contrast games like Dungeon Plunder, QuestLord, Mission Europa, etc are done entirely by one person who also markets, maintains a beta, updates, etc, etc on their own. Those are the types of games that seem to demand special recognition as stand-outs in creativity and bootstraps ingenuity in my opinion. I think that's just it, "smaller" publishers on iOS thrive on the false implication of being "indie" and the under-dog image when that's entirely untrue. In the example of Crescent Moon, they are a multi-platform publisher with a 30+ title catalog on iOS alone along with a presence on Steam. FDG Entertainment has 19+ titles on App Store, BulkyPix (who handle Penumbear) has too many to count. I've seen several developers genuinely not know when their games would be released because the publisher was handling "fine-tuning". The games are fun. However these publishers, as much as EA or Gameloft, may be part of the vile and offensive force (exploiting developers, over-budget titles hard to compete with, etc) that lead to an emphasis on grassroots indie games to begin with - even more so for iOS gaming still in formative stages.
I too vote for no publishers allowed. Just ain't right to include some and not others. It's the most unfair to Gameloft since Chillingo is owned by EA, and Gameloft games are mobile developed games.
@undead Hmm, thanks for destroying my whole IOS perspective. Never really considered or realized how much influence CM or Bulkpix had. But regarding FDG, are they devs or publishers? Number of games shouldn't be a variable in being indie or not, look at Foursaken's library But guess I'll remove Penumbear and Icycle, let Badland take its rightful place as #1 IOS indie
A few questions... Tiny Thief? Small developer, published by everyone's favourite... Just something to consider. If we don't count publishers, Rovio has a strong contender. Not that I mind. It's a good game. Is the issue of "ports" still open? Thinking Savant-Ascent and Stealth Inc. in specific. Both did release this year, just slightly earlier on PC.
I just don't see how one can justify this vote as a vote for indies and to include the largest publishers on the planet EA/Chillingo. I honestly think it is a slap in the face to all Indies.
Personally I'd say Savant is okay, but Stealth is definitely a port of an popular and acclaimed PC game that since has also released on PS3 and Vita But we'll have to see what the others say
I would include only iOS originals, those made for mobile devices only. That excludes Flash or web ports (Boson X, ) and PC ports (Savant - Ascend, Limbo, Machinarium, Bit.Trip Run!, Stealth Inc,...). Only games that were originally conceived for mobiles and can only be played on a mobile device (cellphone) and aren't made by a big company (EA, Gameloft, Squeenix,...) (indies that are published by Bulkypix, Crescent Moon, Chillingo,... are ok because its still made by an indie looking for exposure).
It made me cringe in the Icycle thread when people were saying "yay, another great game by Chillingo" or something to that effect. And I had to point out that the game was pretty much made by one guy: Reece Millidge of Damp Gnat. It does annoy me when games are published by Chillingo, Bulky Pix or FDG and the developer's name get buried, nowhere to be found in a thread. I've been guilty myself in the past of giving praise to a publisher and not the developer of a game. Since then I always try to make an effort to find the developer behind a game published by these "big guns". However, I don't think that developers that were "lucky" enough to be published by a Chillingo or a Bulky Pix should be excluded from any poll. In many cases these are games still made by one or two guys, whose names are never heard beneath the weight of the big publishers.
Let me explain the difference between EA and Chillingo since you seem to have no clue at all (a very simplified overview): EA: Large publisher with studios they own. They say to one of their studios: Make me this game (more often). And they have to. No other way around. EA commands and all follow. Chillingo: A publisher where indies go to for exposure and polish. They are not owned by their parenting company and only signed a contract for one specific game. So they still indies but with some help. After that, they are on their own again. So, its everything OK, Connector? Do you understand it better now?
Tiny Thief is made by a Spanish indie developer, so that should be good to go. Savant or Stealth are ports. Cant be included.
LOL... this is becoming uglier and uglier as it goes, and the thread hasnt even been 3 days old. Well, just get the rules up, and i'll see if i can be bothered to dig through an app's history and origins to determine if one title is eligible or not. Im glad Slayin, Heroes of Loot, Dungelot, Danmaku Unlimited 2, Heroes & Castles and EPOCH.2 still look to be eligible.
Both of those were made by indie teams (one of them a one man job) that were "lucky" (depending on perspective) enough to be published by a larger company. Both should be included. If Icycle isnt included, a game made by 1 person, I don't know what else can be.
