Was this a confession? Don't you know? We are an angry lynch mob of witch-hunters and you are just about to be sentenced to the stake...
Assuming you live in an apartment with more than one room, the rent you quote is about 1/3 of the lowest ones over here in Helsinki (a student room of 15 square meters is 300 Euros per month, and student housing generally goes for 20% below market average). Gasoline price has only a 35% advantage in your favor. Over here the average cost of an employee is 22% on top of gross wages due to social security and insurances. Of course each employee pays taxes in the range of 30%. So let's say an employee costs a company about 4500/month and the employee receives roughly 2400 to his or her bank account. In other words, a developer studio with 4-5 full-time employees has a burn rate of 20 000 - 30 000 per month. It's natural for luxury goods to be more expensive in markets with low demand. I believe the cost of basic domestic groceries is much cheaper than any imported goods. I stand corrected about the cost of living in Romania, but only to the extent that the ability to survive piracy over there compared to here is not 10X but only about 3X. This is steering off-topic, so we should probably discuss economy vs. piracy issues in private messages or start another thread.
@Frand: It's a one room apartment. Spacious and nicely furnished indeed, with a garage included, but nothing really out of the ordinary. Don't worry about the gas price. I only paid for one busted tyre and one busted windshield this year, due to poor roads. That costed 500 Euros It was more than the savings on "cheap gas" As for taxes, I have to spend 4800 Euros for an employee to leave with 2400 in his hand. (This includes both company and his taxes and social contributions). On paper, we have smaller taxes than Finland. In reality, everyone falls in the highest bracket. Up until recently, the highest tax bracket started at the impressive amount of making over 2000 Euros in a year. Food and other stuff are more expensive than in Europe I travel a lot, so I have a well defined idea. Luxury goods have a high demand here Name one exotic car and I have seen one in town recently. (Aston Martins, Ferraris, etc). Why don't you pay us a visit and learn for yourself
Should pay a visit some day, no doubt But let me still argue that your BPI (buying power index) is about double that of Finland. The cost of housing is significantly lower (a spacious one-room in private sector, furnished with a garage goes for 900-1500), and as a solid piece of evidence, let's observe the almighty Big Mac Index: $3.3 USD in Romania, $5.7 USD in Finland. One solution to piracy would be that all game developers move to Thailand. Personally I support this notion.
@Frand: Your figures are pretty much correct. But if I want to live like you live in Finland, I don't get away cheaper. I buy some things cheaper. And I buy other things for a higher price. And the monthly bill comes out the same. And this is not just my oppinion. It's the oppinion of tens of thousands of people from here, who went to work abroad, and now they refuse to move back because the consider the country a lot more expensive than Europe overall. Should I add that our local airport has one of th highest taxes in Europe (If I am not mistaken, actually the highest in Europe) ... and the list can continue. Thailand is nice ---- To get back on topic we should discuss technical solutions against piracy. Useless arguing will only bring us cheap consolation.
Oh, forgot to post, here is a link to a site regarding to the initial posted article: http://mashable.com/2010/01/13/app-store-piracy/
Believe it or not, I actually got your point. I suspect your assessment on this is correct. BTW, I am not boycotting you. Your candor was quite refreshing. Focus on technical solutions is probably your most effective tool. Good luck! Bloody Pirates!!!!
Just to make it clear, since I started the group, it's not an "anti-piracy club". We don't collect dues and have meetings in a treehouse. It was simply an attempt to send a small message on one forum that many members here are dedicated to showing the devs who post here that we won't use cracked apps. It's a way of showing them that we value their work, and believe they deserve to be paid for it. A simple concept, but one that brings vehement arguments from other people. I personally believe that these arguments come from people who want to justify their theft. If you don't believe that, that's fine. I can tell you that NONE of the arguments that have been presented, which range from abstract, philosophical, statistics based, or completely non-sensical, have changed my opinion that they simply are justifications for theft. To the idea that by personally choosing to delete an app from my device and not buying from a developer that I believe doesn't value their work, I don't agree. I haven't, and won't, asked for a refund. He still has my money. Perhaps he can use it to advertise on a torrent site. I haven't asked anyone in the "club" to follow my example. I made a personal decision not to monetarily support someone who I feel doesn't value their product. Period. This is not antithetical to the mission statement of our "club" at all.
@Scottlarsen Thanks! It's great to see that finally someone understood my (real) point of view. The only thing we can do about piracy at this time, is disect it, try and understand how and why it works, and find ways to both prevent it, or convert part of it into sales or revenue. While at it, if any of you developers are coming to the Games Convention this summer in Leipzig (or any other major events) we could setup a meeting and discuss issues like this, face to face. Open discussion and cooperation is something that can help all of us.
@sizzlakalonji The only developers who don't value their products, ar those that put out crappy stuff trying to make a quick buck. You won't find them here or anywhere else, posting in public. (Regardless on which side they choose). What I was trying to point out from the very begining, is that in the current state of things, the only (or best) solution is to try and deal with piracy in a way that minimizes it's impact on your products. For the past several years, I had a lot of private conversations with gamers. Here are some of the main reasons people pirate. I try to put them in a relevant order: 1. Price and affordability Piracy rates tend to be inversily proportional with the average income in one country. Solution: Try and keep prices as low as possible. Offcourse, not in a way that affects your business. But please don't raise prices driven by illusions of getting rich. If possible, reward your existing customer base with discounts. We offer 20 to 50% discounts to all existing customers. Since we have introduced this, sales coming from past customers have surged. Offer at least one free update for your product, which should add new content. It highly increases the gamer's perception that you care about them even after they paid. If it's possible, use different prices for different geographics regions. For example, we have sold 2 of our PC games in russian retails stores. We earned $1/copy sold, but sold in the high thousands, in a market that otherwise generated less than 1% of our revenue. 2. Customer support A lot of (big) companies focus entirely on selling. After that, screw the gamer. If he has an issue, it's his or her problem. Offer a decent and good customer support. Keep a forum. 75% of people who ask for support on our forums, get their correct answers from fellow forum members, before I even get to read the forums. Gamers are more attracted to games around which there is a vibrant community, always there to help. A very high number of people pirate for the simple fact that they believe they are not treated fairly, and the company doesn't deserve their money. 3. Crippled trials/demos A lot of people pirate a full copy to evaluate the product. If they like it, they buy it. If not, they delete it. You don't lose much or anything here. We try to offer demos which have all the features of the full version, and the only limitation is the amount you can play (Ex: Just the first 2 levels, or 10 minutes, etc). If you have a trial, clearly state on your marketing materials that it's completely unrestricted in terms of features and usability. --- Further on, don't treat people who pirate software, as criminals. Whenever some using a pirated copy uses our forums, or requests customer support, instead of telling him that he is an arse, I try and explain him that if he uses pirated copies from which we don't generate revenues, than we can't afford the time and resources to offer him tech support or continue developing the game. You have a higher succes rate if you explain to them that their behaviour is damaging to the industry. In a similar discussion to the one we are having, there was a debate about the "great work" torrent sites do, by giving everyone free games. After I have pointed out the fact that people running torrent sites get filthy rich by stealing my work, and by giving it for "free" on their site which is filled with advertising that generates huge revenues, pirates got a different perspective and started contemplating. I got them to swear they will never ever click on advertising banner found on torrent sites. I was proud of myself. I managed to hit the torrent sites admins exactly where it hurst them the most. In their revenue source. At least they start seing how it is to lose money. Bottomline is, piracy is nothing but an industry which steals from developers, and they get rich on both the developers and gamers back. This is the idea that should be spread around. That torrent site owners are nothing but scumbags who equally exploit our work, and the gamer's desire for games, for their personal profit.
Thanks! I just wanted to hear exactly that. But I assume that threating criminals as non-criminals isn't really easy, isn't it?
@Vovin: Thanks Indeed it's not easy. My mother thaught me one thing: "Diplomacy will take you further than anything else, in your relationship with other people". Here is a proposal. I want to put up a website which has 1 single paragraph and nothing else, explaining everyone how torrent admins get rich on BOTH gamers and developers back, while claming to actually perform the right thing. That's it, and nothing else on that page. It should draw enough attention if people promote it, and send out a true message to everyone. Who will help push it?
@exosyphen: I appreciate the change in your tone, and understand and appreciate some of your ideas. I must say though, that your original posts in this thread had a somewhat cloudy message. If you posted what you just said originally, I would have said that while I disagree greatly with your premise #3 (pirates "try" games, and if they like them, they buy them), I appreciate your attempt to find alternative solutions to the problem. I was reacting more to the "I like seeing my games on torrent sites", instead of, "these scumbags are getting filthy rich stealing my games". I like Rail Adventures very much. I didn't delete it without thought (especially since I had only one level left to unlock the final stage), but I felt that based on your earlier posts, you didn't value your products. Perhaps I was mistaken based on recent posts.
@sizzlakalonji: Last year I was offered $300.000 by a private equity firm to buy out my studio. I have declined it. In the past years I have been offered highly attractive and well paid positions in various large companies, which I have turned down. I was called stupid. Having the chance to go over emails each morning over some freshly brewed coffee, being able to pull out my notebook anywhere and jot down ideas for a game, is something that can't be bought with money. The thrill when a new idea is sparked, and my desk fills up with papers, notes, sketches ... the long nights spent to finish and release a beta before going to sleep ... the reaction of people seing that work for the first time, it's such a beautyfull feeling. I will let you draw the conclussion on how much I value my work
Before the AppStore I would have entirely agreed. Now that we've witnessed people pirating $1 apps, I no longer quite share that sentiment. Lowering prices works only when the perception of value is set higher initially (which is why price drops on Steam bring plenty of sales). But because App Store is rock-bottom already, the software has managed to erode its value. I don't know how to fix this hole that the market has dug for itself... there's no way everyone will agree to raise their prices simultaneously. Agreed. One of the big benefits of being an independent developer is the personal communication we can have with our customers. It's a shame though, that users of pirate versions tend to be arrogant enough to request support as well This really depends on the game. I agree with evaluation versions on principle, but believe they're only justified for applications of reasonable value. It's a no-brainer to provide a demo for an app that costs 5-10 USD. But a $0.99 app is an impulse buy, a five-minute diversion. Offering a demo would most likely provide the same service as the full version. This is an excellent observation, and a great message to pass forward to consumers of pirate content. Pirates tend to have a mentality that piracy is "free" in some noble fashion - teaching them that torrent sites get rich from this behavior might just be the best wake-up call we could think of.
@Frand: Sending a message that "we" lost 450 million dollars what do you think it will cause? Pirates will just say, "Oh those poor guys, just lost half a billion." It send the wrong message. Sending out the correct wake-up call works better
Awesome. I just recognized the sudden friendly mood and the imaginative discussion which started a few pages ago. That's how things should work. Your idea sounds very good. But we should only work with the link. Nothing more, nothing less. No explanations to the link, no comments. And the page - just the paragraph. No place to comment it, nothing. I can spread the link over a big bunch of german forums, I also can set up some fake torrents with only a link to the page in it (although the torrentfiles name states a different content, f.e.: downloadlink-n.o.v.a-iPhone.txt, downloadlink-avatar.txt and downloadlink-plantsvszombies-beta.txt)... this would spread fast. I just don't know if I am allowed to use these names. The message could also be shot out at Twitter, Facebook and other social networks. Just by spreading the link, people will get curious. P.S.: By rethinking, I really like the idea of giving these torrent sites some of their own medicine and spreading the link over the torrent sites.
@Vovin: You are right. I also consider that the page has to be SIMPLE, CLEAN and EMTPY. Only the message is important. People won't read extensive articles or sites. But a simple message always goes far. I will put together a draft and ask for your oppinions here.
