The Truth as I see the Market

Discussion in 'Public Game Developers Forum' started by Krehol Games, Nov 11, 2010.

  1. Krehol Games

    Krehol Games Well-Known Member

    I have done research and my homework . I have read blog after blog and post after post. But in the developer forum I see a bit of negativity that I feel isnt helpful . Please read before responding.

    1) We are all here to do the same thing . Make a fun game that people will like and enjoy. Hopefully we get lucky!!!! and make some money.

    2) We are supposed to be networking and helping each other out , thats my assumption.

    Now to the heart of the matter . I see some developers telling each other ," oh your game doesnt look that interesting " " oh you got fake reviews " " you game isnt as good as what is already up there " " your graphics suck "

    This makes no sense to me , I thought we supposed to be helping each other?
    Some of the comments sound like jealosy , and some by trolls .

    " your graphics suck"

    I bet many people told lima sky that doodle jump graphics suck . It didnt suck it was just a different style , but now everyone will say oh they are master with thier choice of graphics. So dont diss the next person graphics instead just tell them to tighten up , just keep it positive!!!!

    " oh you got fake reviews "

    If people like someones game , they give it an honest review . Just because the game hasnt become famous yet , doesnt mean the reviews are fake . So when they become famous , they will never go back to help out the person who say oh your reviews are fake. Stop the jealously !!!

    " your game doesnt look interesting" " its not as good as whats up thier"

    How can you judge a game and say it isnt good . People again are too funny , because if the game blows up , your going to look stupid. Everyone has different styles , so please just show some respect.

    " your game is a rip off "

    I hate when I see people using the word ripoff and they dont know what it means. People can have similar games and say oh he copied off of doodle jump . So if someone makes a similar game , it means they ripped it off. No it means they have new ideas to make a game better. Use common sense please when talking.


    On the last note I hope to have a fun time here and make friends . Share links and help each other promote games . We are all trying to be successful , so lets work together . As for people who are negative , I never get into a verbal fight . I just explain myself . If you have intentions of starting with me instead of intelligent talk , just know I wont fight , but I will report on site to Moderators. I hope to meet a few good friend here at Toucharcade. Thankyou for taking the time to read this!!!
     
  2. Arashi541

    Arashi541 Well-Known Member

    Dude you are tottaly right i hate all those trollers who have nothing better to do than to critize games that with a little bit of work could be the next big thing!!!
     
  3. PixelthisMike

    PixelthisMike Well-Known Member

    #3 PixelthisMike, Nov 11, 2010
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2010
    Haha sounds like you're talking about a certain Mr. Ugly who has frequented these forums of late! I totally agree with you, there is no need for negativity in these forums and kudos for standing up and saying something about it. On the plus side there are only a few bad seeds who display this sort of behaviour, everyone else is really great :)
     
  4. Eli

    Eli ᕕ┌◕ᗜ◕┐ᕗ
    Staff Member

    You'll find that most (all?) of the people making these comments aren't developers, but kids just frequenting the developer forums. Join the developer user group, and you'll find the tone substantially different in the private forum once you remove everyone who doesn't actually make games. :)
     
  5. #5 Foursaken_Media, Nov 11, 2010
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2010
    I agree the way some of those comments are written can come across horribly. However, sometimes I see some negative comments that I do in fact agree with. Graphics for example are not ALL subjective. Some games really look bad.

    People often come here asking for advice... "Why did my game not sell well? What do you think of my game? Why does no one seem to like my game?" You honestly can't do that and expect to get a flood of comments just saying how great your game looks and how you can do it! If a developer doesn't want honest feedback, they probably shouldn't have asked for it. Sugar coating opinions does no one any good... In fact, criticism is the best way to make something better. And as a developer it is an important quality to be able to discern genuine complaints and criticisms vs. subjective opinions, and then appropriately address them. Also -- while it by no means gives anyone a right to be rude -- a developer should probably get used to brushing off LOTS of ridiculous, bias, subjective complaints ;)

    Again, the way some of the comments are made are definitely rude and wrong -- I agree -- but the underlying message I often think is really just some tough, necessary "love."

    Also I agree when that its rude when people post their opinions like that when someone hasn't asked for them, or it has not place in the current discussion. Then yes, in those cases they are just out of place and annoying.
     
  6. headcaseGames

    headcaseGames Well-Known Member

    Jun 26, 2009
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    I agree, it is actually refreshing to get a little bit of the harsh feedback in some ways. It's of no use to anyone for devs to come in here and have our work fawned over "oh it's great, it's great" regardless of what is actually being shown. At the same time, being told "your work is garbage and I'd rather be buried alive than ever have to look at such garbage for even a second longer" can be a bit overbearing.

    I think we've reached a point where people are starting to get jaded by the constant flow of noob devs on here "ohh, look at my work, I was able to get graphics to display on the screen" and this is sort of a response to that.

    Overall I think most people behave fairly respectfully, so it's not really an issue to get too worked up over. I am thankful for this forum and the people who do actually take the time and energy to (honestly) critique things and help one another out, we are all in this together after all!
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  7. mr.Ugly

    mr.Ugly Well-Known Member

    Dec 1, 2009
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    well the problem is mr. ugly is no sugar coater.. i speak my mind, if i think something is crap i tell you soo.. thats called being honest.. no its not polite.. its not nice.. its not comforting.. but its more or less the truth. at least my point of view.. you don't like its ok.. you are entitled to your opinion.. i am to mine..



    No we are not.. there alot of different kinds of developers in the app store.. some do it as a hobby, some do it as a job, some try to get rich.. others just to pay their bills..

    for some this is serious business and they are not interested into luck, they are interested into money.

    and you know there is no money to be made because everything has to be free if you ask a customer.


    are we? why? are we is this a socialistic 70th hippie parrade? actualy if you are a developer , then we are enemies. you take away my customers i take away yours.. seriously..

    everyone will find help somewhere somehow if he is worth the help in the eyes from the supporter.. so sometimes one gets help sometimes not..



    well did you got fake reviews? be honest.. usualy they are if you have like 5 and all are 5 stars..

    you are so deep down the charts it feels a bit wonky to have just a handfull of customers and all think this product is the best ever..

    so its not faar fetched to think thoose are fake review.. you said you did your homework.. so you would agree that if you see someone elses game with such ratings, such charts.. that one might think that.


    why are we supposed todo so? telling someone not to post fake reviews is help.. its a valid positive suggestion. "don't crap on yourself".

    at least they could got some variety.. one 5 stars one 4 one 3.. a bit bad press some good.. but 5x5starts rating.. hard to sell


    lol.. this is funny.. no one is jealous about your product.. if you think so you are delusional


     
  8. mr.Ugly

    mr.Ugly Well-Known Member

    Dec 1, 2009
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    hah.. well i think "no tone" fits more to the private forum..

    but on the other hands.. thats pretty normal.. thoose guys are working on their project..

    hmm what am i doing here.. ahh yes.. waiting for the awfull slow upload to itc to finish up.. jeez is it slow.. :(
     
  9. headcaseGames

    headcaseGames Well-Known Member

    Jun 26, 2009
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    well this much I will take you to task for. I feel like there is such a strong sense of camaraderie in independent development, all the way down the line. Yeah, at the end of the day we are competing with one another for the same dollars, but time and again I have seen so many folks helping spread the word for one another, offering advice on every stage of development (coding, marketing, style of art) - even to the point where devs have offered to help get in there and physically work to get a project finished! It's pretty encouraging, and it also gives one a palpable sense that others in the community appreciate the effort.
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  10. Krehol Games - thanks for your post, I've been having the same feeling for the past few days, mostly due to Mr Ugly spreading his bile in every thread that I've read.
     
  11. PixelthisMike

    PixelthisMike Well-Known Member

    My issue with you is that you are ALWAYS negative. Every post you make has a negative tone to it. And most of the time nobody is asking for your negative opinion, you choose to give it where it isn't welcome. I can't figure out if you're a hater or just a know it all, or both most likely.

    Regardless of the reasons we are into iPhone game dev we do all have the common goal of creating fun games that people will enjoy, I don't know how you can try to dispute this fact. Oh that's right you're a hater.

    And even those who are dong this as a serious business still need a bit of luck. Because there is no guaranteed formula to success on the app store. Getting featured by Apple requires a really nice product but it also requires luck because there is no certainty that a super polished and innovative app will be featured. The same luck is needed to get reviewed by a big site such as this.

    This is a DEVELOPER FORUM. It is a community where developers come together looking for exactly those things Krehol mentioned: networking, advice and assistance. At least that is why the rest of us are. But tell me why are you here? Because you don't appear to be a developer and yet you run around with your loose and annoying tongue as though you're the queen bee of all developers. Why are you even here??[/QUOTE]

    What a lot of nonsense. There are literally hundreds of high quality apps buried deep in the charts but this doesn't make them any less deserving of any 5-star reviews that they might have received. You seem to be under the bizarre illusion that any app of decent quality would naturally float to the top of the charts, talk to any developer here and they will tell you just how ridiculous that assumption is.

    And there you go again, you just can't help yourself. It's not the lack of sugar coating that gets me, it's your outright vindictiveness. Honesty is great, brutal honesty is okay where necessary, you're just plain obnoxious.

    Again, utter rubbish. All of us are human and all of us need positive words now and then. There is absolutely nothing with pointing out the good things about someone's game. For one it makes them feel good and that has far more worth than someone as vindictive as you could ever fathom. But as well as that it absolutely helps to know what you're doing right, the things people most enjoy about your game so you can evaluate what it is about the game people enjoy and apply that to your future projects.

    Any real developer will take onboard the negative comments anyway, they won't just ignore them because they came alongside positive ones. Furthermore, if you are nice about your criticism the developer is more likely to actually listen and act on that feedback. As an example, if you were to offer feedback on a game of mine in your usual vindictive style I would just ignore you because you're obviously just a blithering idiot and I simply can't trust that your opinions in any way reflect those of other users.

    I'm beginning to understand; you're one of those incredibly [im]mature people who aren't man enough to say what they want in the real world so come online and run about abusing everyone to make up for their inadequacies.

    Of course I don't expect you to change your ways and I expect that you'll have some half readable response to this basically saying you can say what you want. Ah well, it doesn't hurt to try.
     
  12. mr.Ugly

    mr.Ugly Well-Known Member

    Dec 1, 2009
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    i would disagree (as always sorry folks) .. what kind of camarderie (is this a correc word based on comrade?) should one expect..

    there are what 200-300k .. lets say 1-2% are professional developers like gameloft and co.. then we have the real indies.. how much do we have of them.. 5% a bit more..? and the res.. who are they?
    they are hobbiest (sp?)

    100$ and a mac doesnt make one an indie developer, but they think so..
    whoo look i made "some" game.. now you have to take me serious, i am a indie developer.. nooo..

    if you actualy make a living from developing apps you are an indie developer.. if you don't earn money that way to make a living out of it.. you are an hobbiest.. at least german tax law makes there a definitie difference which is based on income.. if don't have a income that is over some weird number some burocrats came up with.. you will loose your business, because they see it as a hobby. its quite easy..

    i can imagine its different in different countries.. but i assume the general rules are pretty much the same in western countries..

    so thats one aspect.. the term indie.. barely anyone here on the forum is a real indie developer..

    so now to feedback help and all the nice stuff.. well i personaly choose weather to help or not.. its based ony my perception of quality that lies in a product.. if i think its a interesting idea i try to help.. if i can spend time on it..
    a friend of mine has his debut album of electro musik to be released anytime soon.. i have a game in the work on my side then i asked if he was interested that i actuay feature his music in the game.. use his soundtrack and plaster his brand pretty much everywhere possible on the product..

    i won't make much money on the game its ok.. but if it helps to sell a cd or two of my friends then its great.. i did the project initialy because i just wanted to.. but it became more and actualy something usefull.. how usefull time will tell..

    at the end its all perception.. where does help start.. where does it end.. what i can i get out of the stuff people are throwing my way..

    most people will think i'm a jackass.. an asshole, a turd.. but thats ok.. because i don't care what you think of me personaly.. why should i.. you are internet strangers... well hey even my gf thinks i'm being a jackass if when i work with people.. but thats the way i work.. not the way i am.. i'm more than relaxed in private life.. but when there is work i change.. because i learned so.. and so faar it worked out for me.

    i'm not here to promote my games.. i'm not the promoter.. that for you need the sugar coater.. because you have to blow sugar into every customers ass to get their little 99cents.. i am the one who get things done.. and thats the reason i am sometime.. rough, edgy and not comfortable..

    at the end everyone will look out for themself.. possible not now.. since you are earnng nothing.. but lets see how that turns if you have an actual team to run , gets things done in time and budget and are responsible for others life, because you pay them their salary as they are your employees.

    if one understands that life is not easy sugar coat.. life actualy becomes easier.. because you notice the wall youre running into before you hit it..

    so "the truth as i see the market" is.. some games are crap, some games are good.. people can be nice.. or not, thats life.
     
  13. mr.Ugly

    mr.Ugly Well-Known Member

    Dec 1, 2009
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    ohh jeez even more from pixelmike.. oh comeee one.. :/
     
  14. mr.Ugly

    mr.Ugly Well-Known Member

    Dec 1, 2009
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    you noticed that i actualy wrote the real world thingy in the first place.. i surely did this to imply myself?.. no.. i actualy did not... i meant all the moaning kids outside of this section..

    anyway.. you can ask anyone i worked with if i'm vocal in real life or not..
    and i am the same when i work..

    actualy its interesting how this thread turned to be around me.. because of whining.. oh jeez.. you get that in every game thread on TA, to expensive, to short , to crap, to yellow! .. whatever..

    i speak my mind you don't like it its ok.. if you are posting in a public forum you should expect someone to write something at sometime..


    you know i even got a present for being so vocoal once.. its a few month back where i pretty much puked into the face of an friend.. as a result i got a thank you email and he gifted me the super indie bumble jumble whatever it was called package.. because i was the only one being honest to him about the endavour he wanted to make..

    so yes i can be an ass.. so what..i rather bee an (add some of the verbs you used) ass than a cowardly sugar coater..
    i think its better to put your foot into someones ass instead using your head.

    and i can be nice.. if its appropiate..

    i love you guys all of you.. even the useless. ones.. i'm just kidding..

    you don't need to take everything so serious. distance yourself from your work and you'll do creative jobs twice as good, because there is always someone who thinks you do crappy work.. its ok..

    here is a round of smiley for everyone.. take one if you need one..

    :D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D
     
  15. Krehol Games

    Krehol Games Well-Known Member

    Comedy

    Iam very intelligent person , I know why your attacking the developers, I figured you out already. I met people like you before , you want to learn how to program but cant. So you take it out on other developers because they have a gift you dont. I feel sorry for you Mr.Ugly , if I had the time I would help you learn programming. But since I am very busy I cant . I used game editor , which is a easier tool than xcode . Maybe you should try it out one day. I wish you best of luck and hope maybe one day you learn how to develop. Just stop being jealous of the people who can program .
     
  16. mr.Ugly

    mr.Ugly Well-Known Member

    Dec 1, 2009
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    well this is becoming unreal..very intelligent and you figured me out.. congratulations..

    you can hopp over to the private developer forum, there you can find me, introducing me.. with my real name. if you do a search on that you will quickly find some of the games i worked on since i'm being credited for..
    most of what you will find are retail pc games since most of my appstore work is client work but! here comes the catch.. with my name.. you can even find a little bit on the appstore released under my name..

    so i am really stopping being jealous about you and your game and think your post makes it clear that its fine now for me to leave this discussion.

    i wish you the best of luck and possible one day you can actualy teach me something.. that would be great.. i would appreaciate it.. thank you alot!
     
  17. BravadoWaffle

    BravadoWaffle Well-Known Member

    Sep 25, 2010
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    Oi, how bout we stop whining and start making some games? I for one appreciate having my work ripped apart, you should to. In this world there's plenty of people who don't care enough to take a second glance at your work, to have somebody who's willing to look at it in depth and point out every glaring fault is a huge help.

    Anyway, before this thread get's locked, I wanted to get this in:

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  18. swiftest

    swiftest Well-Known Member

    May 18, 2009
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    I agree with this sentiment. Also, I don't think it's a zero sum game. Two different developers' titles may actual increase sales for both in the right circumstances. Also, with so many developers out there, it's unlikely that any one developer is your "enemy." The real enemy is lack of creativity, polish, marketing, luck, and ultimately, knowledge. The last bit is something all devs can help each other with.
     
  19. mr.Ugly

    mr.Ugly Well-Known Member

    Dec 1, 2009
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    cute cats for the win!

    [​IMG]

    everyone takes one of thoose and be nice to each other for the day :)
     
  20. 99c_gamer

    99c_gamer Well-Known Member

    Mar 23, 2009
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    Even us "non indie dev" hobbyists have a bit more authority than folks talking big with nothing to show.

    Anyone who's made a game at least has some idea of what it takes. What looks like crappy game to a bystander could easily be 2-3 months away from being brilliant.
     

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