Universal Swap Heroes 2 (by Christopher Savory)

Discussion in 'iPhone and iPad Games' started by touchy85, Feb 18, 2015.

  1. Oscar Streaker

    Oscar Streaker Well-Known Member

    Dec 20, 2011
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  2. y2kmp3

    y2kmp3 Well-Known Member

    Jun 25, 2010
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    #62 y2kmp3, Feb 21, 2015
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2015
    LOL! You have an interesting (or perhaps even a bit too cynical) take... though that is far from my intent. I am near the end of the game already and can likely beat the game on my own without Chris' help given enough time and patience. My previous discussion is not to ask Chris to "beat" the game for me but for him to explain the thinking and builds he sees as optimal strategies when designing the game. This is what I was most interested in learning from Chris. The swap system is very elegant despite its simplicity, thus I want to know from the creator himself on why he created these 8 different classes of characters, how their strengths and weakness play into the game's strategies, and what his original intents are on how to use these characters in the attacks.

    An analogy to this is the following. When you play a logic puzzle game, you can sometimes discover alternate solutions that the game's creator never intended. While some players may be satisfied with just beating the game no matter how it is done, for me it is equally important to know what the original intended solutions are from the creator so that I may understand how or why both I and the creator missed each other's solutions. This is the LEARNING and MOST REWARDING part of the gaming experience for me playing a logic puzzle or strategy game.

    The journey itself is just as important as the destination...

     
  3. Oscar Streaker

    Oscar Streaker Well-Known Member

    Dec 20, 2011
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    The journey IS the destination

    cathartically speaking ;) I get what you're saying and appreciate your interest in the nuts and bolts. I wondered myself how the dev managed to get something this narrowly focused to work as well as it does.
     
  4. y2kmp3

    y2kmp3 Well-Known Member

    Jun 25, 2010
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    #64 y2kmp3, Feb 21, 2015
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2015
    Now, these are statements from you with which I can definitely concur.

    One of the most surprising and brilliant elements of this game is how much strategizing is needed and available at your disposal with just FOUR (4) pawns, only THREE (3) of which were in attack positions at any given time.

    Think of this when compared to other strategy games like chess or checkers and how many pieces are in play on a board at a time. Now think of the huge play space in many of the numerous match-3 clones you played.

    The mere fact that such depth exists in gameplay strategies despite operating on such huge constraints is what peeked my interest the first moment I started playing this game. Chris could have easily made the game with 5, 6, or even higher number of pawns, but he did not do so consciously. Thus, I am most curious in learning from Chris how much of these mechanics was he consciously aware of when he designed the game and how much of these were "evolved" but "unintended" originally.

    The story reminds me of Connect Four. Many people found Connect Four to be a bore compared to other strategy games like Checkers, Chess, or Go. Yet, it was not until the mid 90's when the game was finally "solved" with an algorithm that can make the first player always win (that is, perfect play), no matter what the second player does.

    This is an example that demonstrates, even for a game that may appears simple on the surface, the background mechanics can be intensely complex. Swap Heroes is a game that essentially has 4 pawns, and yet somehow Chris is able to create so many levels, each of which intricately and differently "tests" a specific play style so that a player cannot just brute force through the game with a single "universal" build. This is absolutely remarkable.


     
  5. Chris Savory

    Chris Savory Well-Known Member

    Oct 23, 2014
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    Hey y2kmp3,

    Firstly, thank you very much for the compliments towards the game's design. It's very flattering and likely far too generous :) Thank you as well, Oscar!

    I will completely admit the design of the game and the balancing is not something I've put through rigorous tests. I create games by myself and contract out artwork and audio so I'm usually relying on my own intuition to get the design to a place where I'm just personally content with it. No crazy spreadsheets or user testing beyond just sending it to a few friends' who's opinions I value.

    To answer your question about the 4th level though. I just beat it on challenge with this combination (first try after not playing for a few days, i might add, hehe) mage, monk, archer, and alchemist. I tried to use as opposite a party as could be from the list you described. I do feel that one of mage or summoner is pretty much mandatory, though. I make sure that my mage is in the back as often as possible so that she can hit any bomb that appears that is behind another enemy. If a bomb appears that is not behind another enemy, i kill it with the archer or alchemist instead, keeping the mage essentially primed to handle a second bomb, should it appear. The monk is also superb at soaking up damage so I'm able to use him to block any knights that get up close and not worry too much about anything but bombs.

    Some characters are definitely preferred and strongly encouraged on different levels. I won't by any means say that there are dozens of possibilities for each level, especially on the harder difficulties, but there are enough that I'm confident people can discover the overall strategy that works best and put together a party that's success is at least possible with careful swapping.
     
  6. y2kmp3

    y2kmp3 Well-Known Member

    Jun 25, 2010
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    #66 y2kmp3, Feb 22, 2015
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2015
    Sorry, Chris, but I think the game should be intelligent enough not to put the player in this position:

    [​IMG]

    FYI, the knight in front on the left lane spawned AFTER I summoned the dragon, so therefore it is not possible for me to even defend this, as the game gives me no opportunity to do so and essentially locks me to a dead-end. I feel like playing a maze and then learn that there is no exit once I entered it.

    How am I supposed to play this? :(

    I usually get into trouble when there are 3 enemies in the same column or when there are two bombs that are due to explode within 1 turn of each other that are in two different lanes or they are hidden behind multiple enemies.

    Also, I hate to ask this. But the game "cheat" by taking into account player character placement when "allocating" locations of enemy spawn or silk attack (by spider)? I am asking because I have observed "more than chance" that the game would react in ways that I least want to in Ghost Town Heoric and Final Boss Battle, whenever I took a risk between two moves. I consider any type of "adaptive" move by the game to be a cheat, since it is all too easy for the game to "force" the player to move in certain ways (as in Connect Four in the example I gave in a previous post) to maintain superiority on the board at all times, unless chance intervenes to reverse the tide rarely. However, if this latter scenario is true, then the game has just reverted back to chance over skillz and not the contrary.

    Bonus: Can you consider adding a counter or an graphic indicator telling the player how many turns a particular attack or healing remain at the end of each turn?
     
  7. y2kmp3

    y2kmp3 Well-Known Member

    Jun 25, 2010
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    Chris,

    Finally beat Ghost Town on Heroic! Yikes!

    Here is the near victory screenshot:

    [​IMG]

    Feels good to finally pass this level, though in hindsight the victory feels a bit empty and puzzled. This is because I won it with a build that also failed many times before even though I did not believe I made a gross error in the swapping. I am thus inclined to think that I won not because of a superior build per se but because of chance. This is especially true as this build (shown in the screenshot) is about to fail already and only won the level at the nick of time (because my build would not be able to defuse the bomb in the top right lane in time).

    For this level, the only other build that came close to beating the level is monk, brad, mage, and summoner. Can you share your winning builds (I suspect there is more than one) which you yourself have used to beat this level?

     
  8. andreadeda

    andreadeda Well-Known Member

    Mar 6, 2013
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    Just beat the final boss, i had collected all the stars except the last one on the last level (so i'm missing one upgrade).
    I'm actually finding the last level of Ghost Town harder than the final boss.
    I used Mage-Bard-Werewolf-Summoner with 3 stars in attack,health and heal (and two stars in skill).
    Now i'll try to pass this pesky third level of Ghost Town before trying the endless mode.
    I really enjoyed the game so hope there will be content update in the future or a Swap Quest 3!
    Kudos to Chris
     
  9. y2kmp3

    y2kmp3 Well-Known Member

    Jun 25, 2010
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    #69 y2kmp3, Feb 25, 2015
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2015
    Just finished the game.

    All levels (Standard, Challenge, Heroic) for all 4 worlds and final boss in last world.

    Interesting that the final boss fight is fairly easy if you have the right build:
    Monk, Brad, Alchemist, Summoner
    . Won the fight on the first try with this build. The build was very effective because the level had no bombs. :)

    PS: Not sure if this is a glitch in the final boss fight. The health bar of the final boss stayed the same with a just sliver of health remaining for a long time, to the point where I thought that the game was playing a joke on the player that the boss was unkillable. I kept playing and then suddenly the boss died. Can't explain why.

    PPS: Also spotted another possible bug. I replayed the final boss fight again (after just beating it). At the "boss defeated" screen, the game locked up (unlike the first time) and froze.
     
  10. Anotherkellydown

    Anotherkellydown Moderator
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  11. Mintslap

    Mintslap Member

    Apr 18, 2014
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    Hi Chris,
    First of all i would like to thank you for making Swap Heroes. I currently enjoy playing both Swap Heroes and Swap Heroes 2. Although i havent finished both games i still try to finish both on a regular basis and thanks to some discussions on this thread i might have a chance. Anyways.. I just wanted to ask is there a possibility on updating SH with some features that is incorporated in SH2? And if its not too much to ask since im stuck on both, do you have any tips or recommendations on party line ups and skill upgrades i could try and use? Thanks!
     
  12. deresi

    deresi Well-Known Member

    Feb 23, 2018
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    #72 deresi, Mar 25, 2018
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2018
    I have read comments about this game in this thread. Similar to the recent Alto series issue. It has a mechanic similar to the previous game, but it's a paid game that's well worth it. It's been a while, it's still a game you can still enjoy.
     

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