cr.LP would be 2f startup in volt, same as st.MP. So they are practically interchangeable. How would you implement cr.LP anyway? Why? You keep telling me all these things but for no reason. FA 3, FA 3 shouldn't work in any case because that's an infinite. As is, Makoto has enough speed and juggle points to do FA 3, FA 2, cr lk/(EX) Fukiage. I don't see any problem with it. Oroshi only knocksdown when it hits an airborne opponent. In AE, H Oroshi knocks down. Our chop is most likely hard, but without the knockdown. L Oroshi is +4 and M Oroshi is +5, so you have a 1 frame link into normals. As is, Oroshi in Volt is just used as an overhead and not really a combo starter. But I think it is fine as is, because if you wanted to do a combo with Makoto you have your options already. st.MP is +5. Ultra is 0+6. I don't see how that connects in AE. In AE, Blanka can technically do cr.LK, Ultra, but no one ever does that because it is so unreliable
cr.LP is 4 frames in AE with +1 on block and +4 on hit. In Volt it would be something like 2 frames (1 frame would be too much), +1 on block and +2 on hit, so it's a 1 frame link for st.MP. cr.LP would be down-back + P. Subscribe to the TouchArcade YouTube channel 0:22, 0:44 and 1:36. You always say that Volt should grab things from AE. Well, that's from AE. So you're basically saying that Oroshi, a nice overhead, shouldn't be used as a combo starter, am I right? In that same video, M Oroshi, cr.LK xx EX Hayate is possible, and M Oroshi, st.MP xx EX Hayate is also possible. Again, this is from AE. Add knockdown for H Oroshi (meh), or use M Oroshi instead with small pushback on hit (cool). Again in that video, see the last combo on Gen.
Harley, I don't think a lack of opponent floatiness is what stops Makoto from doing ex hayate, fukiage outside of the corner. It's not that the opponent isn't high enough in the air, it's that Makoto stops short of the corner and the fukiage won't reach horizontally. Play around with it in AE vs Volt and you'll see what I mean. She just travels farther on hit in AE.
W/rt to Makoto, st mp, ultra is only possible on counterhit in AE and Volt. As to that combo vs gen in the video, by canceling to super before using st mp and by hitting st mp at max range, it creates kind of a meaty st mp, giving her the frame advantage to link into ultra. Meaty st mp into ultra is possible in volt, but I dunno if that super combo is possible though. It's most likely character specific. I've tested it a little, but no success. It's one of those weird AE mechanics where combos are possible vs specific characters because of their odd hit boxes and reeling animations. Like how ryu can do lp uppercut, ultra without FADC at a very specific distance in the corner. Google ryu meterless ultra and you'll see what I mean.
I also tried it without any success. Maybe the last active frame of st.MP has a slightly bigger hitbox than the first and that's why in that combo st.MP was meaty. And yeah, I saw that Ryu meterless Ultra. I wonder if that buff for Cody's Ultra would make max range RK, Ultra possible at corner.
Ok so cr.LP is +4f on hit and 4f startup. st.MP is 5f startup and +5f on hit. So you want to do cr.LP, st.MP? cr.LP, if added would be the same speed as st.MP and a slightly smaller hitbox.... Why would we add this? This gives her nothing I said that Oroshi isn't used for combos, not that it shouldn't be used for combos, because Makoito already has combos. 20+f startup moves aren't very conducive to combos . Unless you use it to start a punish combo after FA. In which case you could use Tsurugi to do the same thing (110/180 damage vs a M Oroshi which is 100/200) but with more hitstun! But it's an overhead you say! So you're going to trick them into your uberslow overhead..... Which is why Guile's only use UDK as a punish and why Cody's still don't use Hammer Hook... So really, you're asking for either a change to L or M Oroshi or for knockdown. You aren't discussing or arguing merits of any move. All you are doing is telling me our move is different from AE and not making any discussion or pertinent points why it should be a certain way PS: I only found out EX Tsurugi is randomly projectile invincible for a few frames at startup. How random
In AE, you can create your own mid combo meaty combos by having the opponent start to recover from reeling animation into another move. Quite rare, and not terribly useful
further away from the corner, not midscreen In volt, if the opponent is even a half body width out of the corner, ex hayate, fukiage wont work, even though the opponent is fully carried into the corner. Makoto just doesn't travel as far as AE, she stops where contact was made, she doesn't continue her progress through the opponent. Thus any follow up fukiage whiffs.
I see, I will add that. Also, thoughts on Sakura? I don't think changing st.HP to be f+P makes much sense. But I can see giving her cr.MK in lieu of cr.LK and giving her st.LK too
meant to say b+P for st. HP, not f+p i just don't know if cr mk in lieu of cr lk is a buff - im torn, i see both sides of the argument I think her getting st lp is much more important than st lk. St lk's only major use is as a combo extender when other normals won't reach after a far lk tatsu. Just buff her cr lk's range instead of adding a new move, IMO. Honestly, if I could only make one change to Sakura, it would be to add her st. lp. It would be the best possible buff for her, IMO.
If I remember correctly, Fei could do Fa2, Fa2, Fa2, but the last one knocks down. That's how they made it not infinite.
I'm not saying any "pertinent points" because I already did that the first time I asked for cr.LP... OK, so what doesn't Makoto have that every other char has? Blockstrings. Right now she only has an air normal into another normal, and that's it. Whatever, Hayate is unsafe on block. Whatever, Chop isn't a blockstring. She needs bar to do a blockstring, and well, who would use bars like that to apply pressure? Whatever, Hayate, EX FA isn't a blockstring either. What do Makoto players suffer from? First, spammers, and second, mashers. Since she doesn't have any blockstrings, all she can do to apply pressure is the mindgames with "will she do a command grab after that or not", and also use cr.HP against mashers to avoid reversals (cr.HP has a great pushback). What does cr.LP add? First, blockstrings. Unlike in AE, here you can cancel cr.LP with another cr.LP instead of using those difficult links from AE. Second, hit confirm combos. It's true that since here they would have the same startup this seems useless, but think about this: st.MP xx Hayate, FADC, st.MP. What happens if you miss the st.MP? It'll be blocked, and that's where the blockstring ends. By using cr.LP instead of st.MP, you could at least continue that if blocked with another cr.LP without ending the blockstring. Why am I asking for M Oroshi or H Oroshi with knockdown? First, right now Oroshi is, just like you said, a slow overhead. What's your reward by using this move? Damage (140). BUT, it has lot of pushback. With Makoto you don't want moves that on hit make a lot of pushback without knockdown. You just can't win by poking with Makoto. She's only deadly at close combat (and still, not THAT deadly). Right now we have H Oroshi without knockdown. What does this give to Makoto without knockdown? I've never seen this before in online matches, but the current Oroshi can actually start combos. You can FADC it and use st.MP, etc. FADCing it also makes it safe. What would happen with M Oroshi? First, FADC wouldn't be needed to use it as a combo starter. M Oroshi, st.MP would be as tough as H Oroshi, FADC, st.MP, but without spending any meter. Even better, you can still use FADC after M Oroshi to make the combos easier if you don't feel like trying them with those tough links. Then, M Oroshi is slightly safer on block than H Oroshi, and just like H Oroshi you could FADC it to make it 100% safe. That's why M Oroshi beats H Oroshi in every possible way. And then, if you want to keep H Oroshi, why knockdown? Just like I said, H Oroshi can be followed by st.MP, etc. if you FADC it, so that's why it should be better this way than with knockdown, right? WRONG! Makoto doesn't have any knockdown potential. With this I don't mean that she can't do anything at wake up. She has a really cool command grab. That's enough to put the opponent in cautious mode. BUT she doesn't have almost any move that hard knockdowns, and what's worse, easy links into a hard knockdown. Right now I can only think of Karakusa, cr.HP; cr.HP after j.HP/low j.MK and (EX) Fukiage, EX Tsurugi. By adding a hard knockdown to H Oroshi she gets: - Another move that has hard knockdown property. - Cool hard knockdown mix up between cr.HK (hits low) and H Oroshi (hits high). And of course a hard knockdown lets Makoto whiff Oroshi to get a slightly bar boost and do a setup for Karakusa or any other thing. And FA (crumple), FA (crumple), FA (juggle) should be added just for the sake of getting more combos and slightly different resets.
FA crumple, FA crumple was removed from volt but it used to exist, i think they also removed it on AE 2012
Aka, cr.lp makes Makoto actually possible to win against hardcore spammers, follow up after Makoto's overhead is better than nothing, and if you really hate it, then at least give her another knockdown, because her knockdown options are piss poor. At least, that's what I got from it.
The problem with that in Volt was that it allowed Makoto to do infinite FA. Instead of changing it so that the third FA would juggle instead of crumple, Capcom just deleted all that. I don't have AE () so I can't test it, but that video is from AE. Great summary
I checked. The first post you mentioned cr.LP was #591, which you opened with Most of the time you are just telling me what the move does and not presenting a coherent argument for the move. Makoto has trouble chipping in AE, due to not having great special moves to end blockstrings. She has blockstrings. So you're telling me the character with the best, most and fastest normals in the game has no way to apply pressure? She even has cr.LK she can link into for low mixup. But what does cr.LP give you that st.MP doesn't? A normal that rapidfires. A point you have not mentioned. Thank you for making your first valid point for cr.LP. I italicized the only sentence you made that is actually telling me why the move needs to be changed. You keep going on and describing me what the move does. I want you to argue and discuss why a change is needed not telling me 'it would allow ______ to happen'. So you are presenting both sides of the changes without advocating either one. Thank you for making the decision easier! For the sake of getting more combos?!?!? What kind of a reason is that. So for the sake of more combos, we should allow everyone to do 10x jabs? And not only that but now you have a combo that starts the first damaging move at 40% scaling. Slightly different resets? Because you added an extra FA? Don't kid yourself, damage-wise, it is the same as FA 3, FA 2, fukiage, which no one does anyway. Good to see you are staying on topic with the discussion of Sakura, Vega, Yun and Zangief
I see adding cr.MK/st.LK as easier to implement. Giving Sakura a b+p and a p command is a bit awkward and quite unique for standing normals. Like that giving her st.LP would give her more ways to pressure, but it seems that st.HP is pretty necessary as is. I do like the idea of giving her st.LK as a freebie, as I see no problem with making her far st.HK b+k. Here are some ideas #1 Adding st.LP in addition to st.HP #2 Buffing frames on cr.LP to make it like st.LP (better hitbox, maybe better frames on hit/block) #3 Adding st.LP and removing st.HP and buffing cr.HP (less pushback, better width of hitbox) so that cr.HP becomes the defacto Senpukyaku starter.
