Teleport is worthless so take that out of the equation. Headstomping is pointless too since it will usually whiff when Sagat does a cr. kick since he does a tiny step forward. Only time you win is if you guess right and they SRK but that's only when you EX. FA doesn't really work because of the the armor breaking property of tiger knee so you're still playing a rock, paper, scissor game where you can only throw out rock and Sagat still has all the arsenals in disposal. You can absorb the SRK. If you do, you better make sure to not get be fighting for the next 5 secs or else you end up getting hurt more than you should. So the Sagat - Blanka should also be 6-4?... Edit: Just tried FA the cr.kick but the tiger knee comes out too quick.
What? they can spd you. If youre in crouching kick range they can also spd you. Cammys worst match for sure.
Teleporting is fine - if he's spamming tiger knee so quickly after the low kick, then that leaves little time for him to "react" to a teleport before he goes flying forward. If hehas time to react to teleport, then it's not a perfect link and you should be able to get in a standing kick for distance (or even get that focus attack off before it's broken). Headstomping isn't useless if you are using it as an escape tool. It allows you to reset and get a position advantage where you can punish an errant fireball or poorly timed srk, etc. Also, much like Honda's headbutt, tiger knee is a complex animal. It can be "meaty" so to speak - while a TK that has both hits blocked leaves you able to punish or bait (I think it's -1 or -2 in this game for both hits blocked), you can be neutral on a 1-hit blocked TK some of the time (rather than Sagat at +2 or so), depending on where and when it hits you. You should experiment in the training room with it - put a Sagat on sequence and practice your ranges of blocking low kick + TK. Spam low kick and you'll see that you can interrupt it. I really like headstomp against such tactics, though. You go straight into the devil reverse - if he SRKs you can avoid, if he knees you can punish on the way down, if he does nothing you can get to a good distance. I'm certainly not the bison pro you are, but Squall2002 or w/e his name is uses the combo a LOT on my Blanka so I know where you are coming from. Why not try spamming heavy kick at that range? It trades favorably with knee (and spaces you), works with recovery even after sustaining a low kick, actually hits him while he is DOING a low kick if you are out of low kick range just barely, can be combo'd into itself for nearly 300dmg, and if it is blocked provides good spacing. It's reallllly good for this, I think.
After a blocked knee cant you just jump? If they dont space it properly and it hits twice you can punish with whatever cos theyre at -10. If they space it properly though its safe but theyre still at a frame disadvantage. But im 99% sure you can ex headstomp-devils reverse and fly away. From sagats pov this match is pretty hard. Really hard to anti air headstomp, impossible to anti air it on wakeup. Bison can cross up sagat all day on wakeup and go into short-short-short-knee press which gets a knockdown into more crossups. Plus thats safe on block and its a true blockstring so sagat cant mash dp. And sagat is out of dp range after a blocked knee press so he cant do dp-fadc mixups. Bison and viper are just a bitch for sagat to deal with cos of their air mobility.
I think I can fairly agree on that? My Bison usually have little problems with the tiger knee thingy coz they hardly have a chance to get in range for that. Even if they do, just standing kick to trade or jump away/teleport away seems to do the trick most of the time. I love Sagat's big body frame, very easy to cross over. Kekeke...
How often do I see a Sagat that doesn't have at least 2 bars? Not very often since they love building that up for their BnB FADC combo. So solely based off that, even after blocking two hits from a tiger knee, they can still throw out a SRK and win. Sure you can ex headstomp and devil's reverse away but the aggressive Sagats I face just come right back to my face and now I'm down 1 ex bar for no reason. It's really easy to anti air headstomps, just jump. Sure you can go to devil's reverse, but then they can tiger shot away or just stay crouched so they don't get hit. Cross ups on wake ups never happens against someone that knows what they are doing. SRK auto corrects itself to hit you. If you do get in that perfect range to jump for a cross up, guess what? Tiger knee and your plan goes down the drains. Try playing against a good Sagat with Bison. It takes a lot more work to get a win than playing as Sagat on Volt. Add squall2002 if you want a good Sagat.
that is why its to hard with SP assist "off" when online...sometimes with SP assist "on" you can make a mistake or wrong input your moves because big lag...
Yeah they do if you time it right. They lose to delayed (non reversal) dps but nobody does that. What you have to do is be right on top of their head when they wake up so that the dp wont auto correct but you still cross them up. Cammy can do it with divekicks except against some charge characters I've played squall, but seemed like he didnt really know how to fight cammy. I won like 6-7 or something, dont remember exactly, it was quite a while ago. Edit: Seriously try that cross up thing in training mode. Just set a ryu to record and mash dp. Then try and time it so you are RIGHT on top of them as they get up. It should either stuff the dp or make it whiff-punish.
You can't theorycraft as if they will always SRK when you kick and never SRK when you don't. It's a 50/50 just as much for Sagat as it is for you - if he SRKs and misses, you can an enormous punish on him. And if we go into this assuming Sagat "always" has 2 bars, can't we assume Bison has 2 bars for ex scissors or headstomp punishes? I mean, if we theorycraft that Sagat is psychic and never guesses wrong with an SRK and has infinite FADC cancels, of course Bison doesn't seem very intimidating, but that's not really the case. Not to mention that building up meter against Bison as Sagat is incredibly dangerous, as you can't safely shoot plasma at full screen due to headstomp. I find Bison to be one of Sagat's harder muchups. Bison and Ryu seem to have magical cross-up powers over Sagat.
I haven't been playing a ton of ranked the past month or so but I just got back on the other day and with Fei in particular the Sagat match up has become a bigger nightmare than it was originally. Most every Sagat has figured out to use crouching kick > tiger knees and Fei has no answer for it. I can only imagine how difficult it is for Bison to really do any damage to a Sagat who plays fairly safe just throwing tiger shots from a distance and punishing head stomps with jumping high punch and if Bison gets in he doesn't have much to stop the low kick tiger knee loop. I remember reading from DROQQA that the match up was all about standing outside of his tiger knee range and baiting, but that has certainly proved easier said than done, I almost lost to a 500 bp Sagat who did nothing but low kick>Tiger knee the entire match because everytime I tried to punish it with a flame kick/grab/rekka he would be able to throw a SRK or another knee well before I could get my move off. Needless to say to prove a point I rematched him and used Sagat and literally did Tiger Knee the entire match and won even Sagat can't beat his own safe Tiger Knee's. It's not to say that I'm concerned about him being broken, he is completely beatable in any match up but I just have to learn a consistent way of being able to do damage and get the upper hand against him. I think though I would need to agree that the match up between Sagat and Bison is in Sagats favor.
well if bison uses head stomps wisely it's not that easy for sagat to use such tactics because punishing head stomps when trying to react on it is actually complicated online.
Chicken Wing works wonders on a crouching Sagat. You can even cross-up with it if he's crouching and combo directly into flame kick. Not only does it have longer range than TK, but it completely bypasses low kick. You said that character is beatable and you've merely yet to learn the ways to counter him, and that's an admirable admission, so it's a bit dismaying that you would go from stating that you need to improve in this area to claiming a Sagat advantage in all sorts of matchups (especially if you don't specialize in those characters, a claim which I don't intend to make, as I don't know who you main). I don't believe all matchups are equal, but I will tell you that Bison takes away Sagat's most important tool - zoning - and crosses up Sagat all day. When I face Bison, I have to work harder for the win than I do against, say, a Makoto or a Fei (most run into my standing kick) or a Gief (Ditto). I suggest going into Grueling mode (Arcade, not training) as Sagat and trying out the combo on the computer end-boss Bison (unless you do flawlessly in which case Akuma is your final-final boss ). Yes, it cheats a little, but punishable is punishable.
fffan, Sagat's cr. k, tiger knee is not an infinite loop that you can use to push people into the corner at will. If perfectly spaced, you can only get 2 iterations of it vs most characters (3 vs a select handful). Any more than 2 and the tiger knee will be unsafe.
My main is Fei, and me admitting to needing to improve my match up against Sagat doesn't take away that Sagat has a clear advantage not only in my match up but in Bison's. Assuming as we all have that Volt is mostly based on the characters SF4 Vanilla counterpart the match would read 6/4 in Sagat's favor there as well. As for chicken wings on a crouching Sagat goes, the cross up is something I rely on in that match but if it whiffs or they block it puts you right out there for a knee. I have beaten a fair share of Sagats but they are rarely easy to win against and it usually comes down to how well I can mix them up, and that applies for any match up. I just feel like a lot of the counter argument is saying Sagat needs to punish on reaction when that is a two way street both characters need good reaction times to do anything. Bison is tough and I'm sure he can give Sagat a better run for his money than other none fireball characters but I still think that the match up is in Sagats favor, and 6/4 is a good number to give it. EDIT: DROQQA what say you on this matter, how is the Bision match up for you?
More stuff on Fei vs. sagat. Once you get a knockdown, get in that ass. A meaty st. p or cr. p into rekkas beats everything sagat can do on wakeup, except uppercut. Once you got your opponent upper cutting on wakeup, bait that with a jump back (which also punishes wakeup tiger knee).
I honestly think bison is 6/4 over sagat, because a) sagat can't zone bison out, b) bison has the best wakeup options in the game, especially EX headstomp, c) bison's st. k is amazing and can stuff Sagat's cr. k, d) bisons crossups work so well on sagat, once he gets in, he has so many safe options, and e) bisons cr. k is 3 frames.
Ahahaha I'm not sure I want to do that but that's good info I didn't know that was a option. On knockdown I usually just try a chicken if blocked flame kick>fadc grab or poke combo into rekkas, this will save me some meter. Fair enough, I feel like you are counting out Sagat's close up game, if Sagat stays on him then it's tough for him to build the meter you say he uses to do damage. I've played your Sagat so I know how nasty you are with his close range game because you did a real good job of overpowering my Fei at point blank range I cant imagine that wouldnt apply in the Bison match up as well. Ultimately though you would know better than I would.
when i met defensive sagat my strategy is just stay away or make a distance for his crouching kick + tiger knee but that distance can give me a chance to use seismic or double seismic+burning kick...and sometime i use highjump+heavypunch in the air+burningkick or highjump+kickin in the air+crouching low kick+medium thunder knuckle and hope sagat stay crouching....this is my C.Viper's strategy when i met Sagat...
I'm surprised to hear fffan say that matchup is in Sagat's favor, because the matches I played against him are what make me believe it's in Bison's. He destroyed me 8-0 in the Bison/Sagat matchup.
