Are back dashes 0f start up? To avoid a throw does the back dash have to be executed by at least the first frame of the throw or earlier? Are giefs throws 0f start up? To counter throw (by pressing p) how much time do you have? How many frames?
Nothing is 0f startup. Backdashes have very limited invincibility The thing with throws is that they can punish moves that are -1 whereas an uppercut can't. I'm not quite sure what the window is to tech a throw, but it's certainly a few frames. Less if you are crouching
Those grabs can't be active on the second frame, they are already active on the first frame. There's no other theory that can explain why -1 moves can only be punished by those fast grabs, and as such only those grabs are actually 1f, with the rest of fast moves (Tiger Knee, Shoryuken, SPD, etc.) being 2f. Two examples with Sagat vs Zangief: 1. Sagat does SRK (blocked), FADC (forward) -> -1. 2. Zangief has one frame before Sagat's dash ends to do anything. He mashes Ultra. 3. Zangief's Ultra animation plays. Once the animation starts, the game already advanced one frame. 4a. The Ultra animations ends and now he see that Sagat's on the first frame of his standing animation. He gets grabbed by the SPD. 4b. Sagat mashed SRK, Ultra, Super, backdash, etc, before that last frame. Still, he's on the first frame of his standing animation. He gets grabbed by the SPD. 1. Sagat does SRK (blocked), FADC (forward) -> -1. 2. Zangief has one more frame before Sagat's dash ends to do anything. He mashes up + SP (SPD). 3. The game advances one frame. 4a. Sagat's now on the first frame of his standing animation. He gets grabbed by the SPD. 4b. Sagat mashed SRK, Ultra, Super, backdash, etc, before that last frame. Zangief's SPD gets stuffed (CH). Both things are grabs, yet you can only avoid getting grabbed with the SPD example, which is a 2f move vs the Ultra which is a 1f move. I can only think of another theory that could explain this: much like oldschool supers in fighting games, you can't mash or block once those fast grabs start, BUT YOU CAN. Put the dummy to mash SRK, hard knockdown him and try to Ultra at some distance with different timing. You'll get a reversal always from the dummy. Therefore, Zangief's Ultra/Super, Honda's Ultra and Akuma's Super are 1f moves, while Zangief's SPD, Sagat's Super, etc etc etc are 2f. That also makes the frame data make sense (Zangief's 1f Ultra can punish -1 moves and his 2f SPD can punish -2 moves, and so on).
I'm not even going to point out all the problems with what you said Capt counted the frames. Uppercuts are 1f (with some exceptions) and so are grabs
Sagats srk is actually is active on the 3rd frame 3f and that why it gets beat by spd. Try tiger knee that is 2f and it will beat anything except gief ultra
I had a similar thought process. "He's going to walk forward and walk into my normals." It worked,unsurprisingly, my favorite part was when you jumped into Yun's s.mk. Thanks for playing with me.
I figured if I made it easier for you you would play more aggressive, you didn't so I left. Sorry. Nothing personal.
Well, my main point remains, Zangief's Ultra/Super, Honda's Ultra and Akuma's Super are 1f, most SRKs/Supers/etc are 2f and so on. Otherwise the frame data just doesn't make sense at all.
How? You say that (most) SRKs and all grabs are 1f, yet only the "fastest" grabs can punish moves that are -1. That doesn't make sense.
So I will now explain for the 3rd time, that in order to not get grabbed, you can't block and you need to perform an action that takes has at least 1 frame startup, be it a backdash, jump, airborne move or a throw invincible move. Blocking on the other hand requires no frames to 'kick in.' Example 1: You are neutral after a move (e.g. EX Tiger Knee). Any 1f uppercut or 1f grab can be avoided by correctly blocking/avoiding. Example 2: You are -1f after a move (e.g. Akuma FA 1, forward dash) There is a frame where the opponent can do a move and you are still vulnerable (frame 0, for reference). If he does an uppercut with 1f startup, it will be active by frame 1, where you can block. However, if he does a grab, in that frame you are neutral and will be grabbed. At best, you will be in the startup of your 1f action. If you attempt to do any move, it would not be active until the next frame, frame 2. So the corollary is that 1f throws in fact punish faster than a 1f move by virtue of any counter-action to beating a throw taking 1 frame. So in the second example, akuma's FA1 on hit, dash forward is punishable by 1f grabs but not a 1f uppercut. If you set the CPU to jump and you hold up you will see the 1f difference. Honestly, I don't know at what point you are trolling us. We told you that visually (most) uppercuts are 1f startup and you incorrectly thought Sagat's uppercut had the fastest startup amongst uppercuts. These are things that have been mentioned a few times each within this thread.
I'm not "trolling". I already pointed before that SRKs are at most 2f, same with "slow" grabs (Zangief's SPD and so on). If a SPD was really active on the very first frame, you wouldn't be able to CH him since you can only CH a move while it's still on the startup frames (not active yet). The only thing that's confusing me is that you're saying that a -1 move can't be punished by 1f SRKs but it can by 1f grabs. Again, SRKs are at most 2f. The first frame isn't active. If you record Ryu using his SRK on someone, you'll see that there's a frame where the move didn't hit yet. Grabs are also 2f at most, that's why you can CH one. The four "fast" grabs however are, unless you give me another explanation, real 1f moves, because if you could punish those -1 moves with any grab I wouldn't have any problems woth what you're saying, but you can't. However, I didn't ever say that Sagat's SRK is the fastest.
Now I think you're trolling. You claimed that all srks are 2f and that sagat's is the same speed. Sagat has one of the slowest srks. Hence it stands to reason you thought Sagat's srk was the fastest Obviously, (almost by definition), nothing can be faster than 1f startup. Do you know what 1f startup means? It means that the move has 1 frame of startup. So hence the moves we said have one frame of startup (which Capt has counted and confirmed) we define as 1f. For the fourth I will repeat that the reason why 1f grabs can punish moves that are -1f and 1f shoryukens cannot is that in order to avoid a grab, your evasive action requires at least 1 frame to come out, whether it be a jump, back dash, throw invincible move or airborne move. Also, your logic about counterhitting grabs is flawed. You can easily counterhit grabs with most hopkicks or other moves with throw invincibility. A non-exhaustive list of 1f uppercuts: Akuma (EX) Goshoryuken Blanka EX Vertical Roll Cammy (EX) Cannon Spike Chun Li EX Spinning Bird Kick Cody EX Criminal Upper DeeJay (EX) Jackknife Maximum Fei Long (EX) Shienkyaku Guile (EX) Flash Kick Ken (EX) Shoryuken Ryu (EX) Shoryuken Vega (EX) Scarlet Terror Yun EX Nishokyaku
Harley give the guy a break. This shit is confusing! You might as well be a rocket scientist trying to explain the difference in fuel mixtures at the molecular level. We get the jist of what you are saying but its hard to visualize. The first paragraph in the quote below makes sense but the subsequent explanation just makes my head spin Go easy on us laymen
The thing is, I've explained it before and Varo just keeps insisting he is right and it's as he says it is, despite all our empirical and experimental evidence
Guess who is in Japan and just tried USF4? Unfortunately there was no decapre in the available built.
