Like I said, try this: Set dummy to jump: do FA 1 (hit), then jump. You jump after dummy, so it looks like it is negative, but it can block a shoryuken. I'm also trying to figure out if a 0f frame startup can exist
I don't know about you, but I'm jumping in the same frame on hit. I play with headphones and I even hear the jumping sound at the same time. FA1 on hit vs Zangief. Edit: ok, just tried against another Akuma on hit. He's jumping before me. WTF. Same with Abel. Tried against Zangief just to be sure that he's jumping at the same time as me, and yup, out of the three he's the only one that starts jumping at the same time. I forgot to try to punish Akuma's FA on hit. Here's everything I got: On both hit and block, Akuma's FA is punishable by 0f moves such as Zangief's Super/Ultra, Akuma's Super and Honda's Ultra (didn't test this one, but I'm sure is also 0f startup), which means that it's -1 (I think every character has the same advantage for FA1, at least I know that Sagat's the same, but I didn't test the rest of the cast. If you put the opponent jumping and you hit him with FA1 once he's grounded, he/she will jump one frame before you. HOWEVER, if that character is Zangief, both will jump at the same time. The only way to explain this is that Zangief's jump takes an extra frame of startup.
Oh, and if the mystery was on why any SRK can punish it, then scrap all I wrote. The fastest SRKs take 1f to startup. That means that in the first frame it's invincible BUT it isn't active, so it can't punish anything that's -1. 0f startup moves (Akuma's Super for example) can punish them since in the very first frame they are already active.
But the way frame data is done, a move that is -1f can be punished by a 1f move. Likewise, if a move is +1, a 1f move with combo after it
lmao, now I know why I didn't get the thing about Dhalsim's teleport. That's how SG frames work, a 1f move can't punish a 1f move but a 2f one there. Then there aren't any 0f startup moves in the game.
But if that was the case, then they could punish safe things, so they are 1f startup. Also for Akuma's Super.
i think you misunderstand frame data if a move is neutral frame advantage on block (safe), both players can input a command on the same frame after the move is over / block stun ends so on that frame, if zangief does ultra and the other player jumps - the grab whiffs if zangief's grab was one frame startup, the other player could jump out of it after seeing the ultra/super flash
I'm still trying to reconcile this, and I'm not even sure that 0f moves can exist. But with Gief's ultra/super it is 1f until the flash and it connects at that point (1+0)
So ultra/super is mashed, opponent has 1 frame to do a move (any move or a 1f move?), then the ultra animation starts, ultra hits if opponent didn't do a move when the ultra was mashed?
Well assuming a 1f startup, you will get grabbed unless you are airborne or in the middle of a grab invincible move at the start of the ultra flash. I will ask capt to watch the frames and see what he reports
I performed Ryu's SRK (which is a 2f move by how SF frames work) in the same frame Zangief performed an Ultra. Before the Ultra animation Ryu's SRK didn't start (Ryu was still in standing animation), but once the Ultra animation finished and the screen showed Zangief about to use his Ultra (dark screen with everything paused) Ryu was in the first frame of his SRK (still not active, and I know this because after the pause finished I was able to FADC it, and that's only possible if you hit the opponent with the first active frame). I did all that by recording it with Display Recorder and looking frame by frame.
I think I have reconciled the issue. Assuming Ryu's srk is 1f and gief ultra is 1f: You only need to block Ryu's srk. You can block on the 0th frame. For Gief's ultra, no matter what you input, you will only start your action at the 1st frame. Jumping? "Too Late" as gief would say. So you only get out if you do the move the same frame as gief does the ultra (airborne/grab invincible move or just jumping/dashing/teleporting) Corollary: I guess this means if a move is punishable by a 1f srk, it really is -2 on block? But I guess for shorthand, people just say it's -1?
So watching the clips closely I made alot of tests and these are the results Grab Ultras -Before the Ultra Flash (input frame) -During the ultra flash input buffer is disabeled -After the Ultra Flash the game Advanced 1 Frame Freeze of both players and this frame is the startup for any move input before the flash. In case 2 players activated the ultra on the same frame before the flash, next frame is the Second Ultra Flash. (Only grab ultras are active on their first startup frame) -Next Frame Game Freeze (Decision Frame) -Next Frame Game Continues All other ultras are the same but -Input Buffer works during the flash -they have more than 1 startup frame
This is what would make the most sense with frame data in the game. -Means the fastest reversal is gief/honda ultra 1f move active since the first frame. -Fastest SRK/Supers are actually 2f, because the very first frame is the startup and the second one is the active frame. (The input is not executed on the same frame it was input) -Anything that can be punished by fastest srk, supers is actually -2 advantage move. -You can only punish -1 advantage moves with gief and hondas ultra. -A +0 move would mean both players can input moves. -To link a cr.lp, or lp move (which are the same as srk 2f) (1 startup 1 active) you need a +2 move not a +1. -Rapid fire is doesnt apply to this rule as you can cancel recovery of rapid fire moves into itself.
Well when I say a move is 1f, that means 1f of startup. So if you input on the present frame (0f), the move will be active on frame 2. This really doesn't change much, apart from the naming convention for how unsafe moves are (I will check this out). Pretty much, grabs are 'faster' for punishing is all. I still stand by the fastest moves are 1f: Shoryukens and grabs
it also explains why ex green hand (hit) > ultra whiffs Means ex green hand is +1 Ultra will wiff cause still in hit stun Cr.lp doesnt link or lariat cause they have 1 startup frame. Once the move starts its already +0
