There are some elitists that think unless all attacks are dice based, its not an RPG, or you have another group of people that think streamlining somehow takes away from a games RPG"ness" But I'm of course the opposite extreme of that, I think pretty much anything that involves upgrading and advancing a characters abilities is an RPG in my mind. So if it "levels up" and gets better at whatever its doing its an RPG to me.
I'm part of a third extreme. I believe that unless a video game mimics a significant portion of the tabletop/traditional role-playing game experience, it is not an RPG. Obviously, KotOR and the older Fallouts do, but so does Skyrim and Fallout 3. Other games, like (the equally awesome) Deus Ex and (god forbid) Final Fantasy have RPG elements, but are in no way real RPGs. At the end of the day though, whether a game is fun or not is not really genre dependent.
I'm not reading through all the comments, but I feel compelled to post after reading some erroneous descriptions of the gameplay. Let me preface this by stating KOTOR never clicked with me. Mass Effect did, but the mechanics are very different. Kotor essentially uses a (possibly) updated, tweaked version of the Baldur's Gate combat system. I was about to say it's a real-time tunr-based pausable combat system, but that just sounds confusing to someone unfamiliar with Bioware's games. Combat follows D&D 3.5 (IIRC) rules, obviously modified for the Star Wars universe. Turns are present, but there is no "turn counter". A turn lasts a set number of seconds. You can queue up commands, whether paused or not; they are carried out when the characters' initiative roll (yes, there are dice rolls behind the scenes) hits in a given turn. The 3d movement and flashy swordfights are for cine,atic purposes. There is a set amount of time per turn, I don't recall how long one lasts, though. I loved Planescape Torment; the combat system worked fine for me when you have very few (often only one) playable character. I think Bioware didn't want to break immersion by displaying turn counters, but, to me, it just made me feel like I lacked control in battle. The combat system is very different from Mass Effect. Mass Effect does blend the dice rolls with actual action-based gameplay, aiming and firing your gun isn't just for show. Mass Effect also drops turns entirely, I believe. I don't mind real time pausable combat; but the whole turn-based real-time sytem threw me off and I've never been able to dig into a Bioware game besides ME 1+2. For me, the game (along with Baldur's Gate; I haven't played Icewind Dale, Jade Empire, Kotor 2, etc) does too good of a job at hiding the turns and order of attack. Plus, I like ordering commands, not queing them up, which leads me (or led me, when I attempted to play it back when it was released) to turn on the option to pause between every action. If there had been an option to turn cinematics off, perhaps I could have enjoyed the game. As is, it just unnecessarily slowed down battles without giving me the control I desired. Moving around the screen does nothing aside from enhancing the cinematics. Plenty of people (a vast majority of rpgr's, probably) enjoy the system; I'm not debating the merits of it or lack thereof. I just couldn't get into ANY Bioware game save the ME series and Planescape. I forget...did Bioware develop the 2d Fallout games? I loved them. Personally, when it comes to semi-real time combat, I prefer an Action Point system. That can lead to some long ass battles, though. While not a pure rpg, my favorite combat system, for reference, is along the lines of Jagged Alliance 2: AP system with deep tactical options and interrupts.
Just wanted to add one thing: I, personally, haven't taken to games with semi-real time party based combat, regardless of the publisher. This goes back to Ultima 7 for me. It also was the reason I quit Might and Magic when #6 came out. The system works fine for me when you mainly control 1 character, hence my love of Planescape: Torment. I've never cared for RTS's, btw. Unless you can pause and give real orders. In other words, there are a great many critically acclaimed games which I just can't get into.
Actually, I never "defined" anything. That's the problem with these forums. People constantly overstep their boundaries RE: their gaming "credentials". I know what twitch gameplay is. I was gaming when most of you were still pooping in the tub, I'll wager. Maybe I should rephrase it. I find that KotOR is more reliant on real-time movement than others imply.
Deus Ex might just be #1 on my all time list...despite all of it's noticable flaws (it would be nice if the A.I. from Thief had been refined and used, instead of the bunch of dummies you face). That game just sucked me in...I think it was the soundtrack, to be honest. I still have the theme song, the Denton apartment tune, and the Hong Kong bgm stuck in my head. Since 1999 or whenever.
Very close. It uses a modified version of the Star Wars d20 System rules from late 2000 (themselves derived from 3rd Edition D&D, rather than 3.5). The main differences involve the removal of Wound Points, thus leaving Vitality Points as the sole form of Hit Points in the game, and the adjustment of feats to account for both that change and other videogamey quirks.
Potentially biggest squee moment of DX:HR would have to have been the original DX theme music suddenly kicking in unexpectedly at the very end of the game.
I edited his post and he got a warning and is in timeout. The amount of reported posts we get about you gives us a lot of work as well.
I'm not trying to just pick a fight with you or anything, I just want to make it clear since you seem to misunderstand kotor, there is ZERO reliance on real time movement. There is no purpose to moving during battles at all. There are clearly defined turns and clearly defined dice rolls. That is its entire battle system. The only thing real time about this game is that it moves from turn to turn automatically and each turn lasts a certain amount of seconds. There is no real time dodging or real time attacking or a cover system or anything like that. I don't understand where you got the impression that real time movement has any bearing on the battle system. Your claim that any part of kotor is even remotely comparable to twitch gameplay is the issue here. In fact and this is EXTREMELY important you can even play kotor completely like a classic turn based if you want to. There are two settings for this, one setting is auto pausing after each combat round (thus actually separating each set of turns with a paused screen like any other turn based game) and the second and the one more relevant to the discussion is you can completely turn off access to character movement during battles, now ask yourself, if this game took into account in any way shape or form any real time movement during a battle whatsoever, why would they put an option there to disable even being able to move on your own at all? The answer is, they wouldn't. The reason you can disable movement during battles is because movement serves no actual purpose in the game.
I see! So I take it to mean that things like cover in the environment (tables, columns, rocks, etc.); they offer no modifier on the save rolls?
Absolutely not. Since you can't crouch or gain cover behind a wall or anything that wouldn't make sense and would probably be really difficult to program for especially on a 20 sided dice based game. Imagine having to program a modifier just based on the characters proximity to objects and walls.
Interesting. So a guy who is standing 3 feet from 2 guys with point-blank blaster fire isn't in any more trouble than the guy who is standing 15 feet away, behind a column? There's no modifier for distance, either? As far as imagining a modifier, it seems simple. I mean, in a turn-based scenario, you put a guy behind a rock, and even if he's not crouching, half his body is covered. So, inserting a modifier to cut the odds of getting hit by, say, 20% seems incredibly simple. Kinda takes the magic out of this game's combat system.
I loved human revolution, and I am extremely excited for the directors cut coming to wii u. They took an amazing game with a few small issues and is essentially tuning it up to a complete masterpiece.
Zeta claimed there's not much twitch gameplay in KOTOR, and he's right, because this game favors strategic approach to it rather than a reactive approach. Then you replied with a NO. Try to read your previous posts. And i'll quote you... "That's the problem with these forums. People constantly overstep their boundaries RE: their gaming "credentials" And dont imply that you are older than anyone here. Most of the TA veterans here are over 25, and I believe we could average around 30.
Apologies for being a little aggressive on the previous post. I saw on the previous posts you were unfamiliar with the KOTOR mechanics. I assumed you already knew, that the game is more on how to take advantage of dice rolls rather than evading and counter attacking which is what twitch gameplay usually is about.
But how much of his body is behind the rock? Is he 3/4ths behind it? Does it matter exactly where the enemy is standing? Does it count less if they are at a 45 degree angle of the rock? If it is less, how much less? How close to the rock does he need to be to have it count as cover? This is why official cover systems actually exist, because ....let me give you an example, in gears of war you are either in cover or you aren't, its a simple yes or no, if you are standing up behind a piece of cover, if you aren't actually in said cover mode, you are the equivalent of standing in the open. Also I am pretty sure there is no distance modifier, being a Melee character would be suicide in that case, not to mention I believe the game allows the Melee character time to approach the enemy before it officially starts counting off turns. So all of those pieces of circumstantial evidence leads me to believe that if the enemy is within its maximum range it is the same regardless of distance.
None for both. But in Kotor, the character moves until he has a line of sight (usually when behind walls) before he starts attacking. DnD has cover modifiers, and even visibility modifiers, and KOTOR was simplified to have none of that. If a character doesnt have line of site, he will automatically move to where he can see the target (he may lose 1 "turn/round" to the moving part and the enemy can use a medkit or a buff) and they still both shoot together in a round when they have the line of sight. What's interesting is that using heals feel like they only take a partial turn to execute. I can usually down 2 medkits before an enemy attacks, unless it's a boss.
