I love Fargoal, but Rogue Touch is my gold standard for Roguelikes right now. I can't say enough, (although I keep trying to) how excited I am for this game. Any update info, CommanderData?
Hello everyone! Sorry I was not available yesterday to respond, ended up out at sea much longer than originally planned but at least made it home safe This week's been a tough week for game progress, I have a consulting trip to leave on next week that is nibbling away at my time too... still have to work to pay the bills until I become a gaming superstar A lot of behind the scenes work on Spirit Hunter Mineko DID occur though! Integration of my forest, cave, and castle generation into my dungeon-wandering test bed is complete. I can walk through all these different environments and check dungeons for continuity (Up and Down level points and all rooms accessible) and make sure they are interestingly designed to encourage exploration. Now I have been sketching up the interface options and trying to outline what would be the most beneficial to have a dedicated button/touch area on the screen, and what should be "context sensitive". Instead of the popup menu that Rogue Touch used, think like the top right corner button in Sword of Fargoal, changing to be the most appropriate action at the moment. This would allow you to go up/down stairs, open chests, that sort of thing. I am trying to keep the main up/down/left/right directions clear of misc controls and info to make it easier to see and move in those four primary directions. That leaves the four corners, but problems arise when I try to assign a function to each corner. Here is what I've got so far: 1) Top Left - Character Status (HP, SP, etc) - Touch for detail screen and inventory access 2) Top Right - Context Action Button, as described above 3) Lower Right - Rest / Wait Button 4) Lower Left - "Magic" Button, more on this in a future post. This button is very important to the gameplay. Note that we have no need of a "Search" button now due to the changes I've made to gameplay for Mineko that will make searching more dependent on YOUR perception than a random check that simulates the character's perception of the area. What I really DO need is a good way to trigger ranged attacks. Shooting monsters specifically... you'll still be able to do things like throw potions or zap a monster with a wand, but those actions will be handled more like Rogue Touch- pick the item from your inventory, decide what you want to do (throw, zap), then pick the direction. Of course this is too many steps if you just want to fire away with your crossbow, so I need a way to trigger it easily (pun intended ). Some options: 1) Touch your character in the center of the screen as a trigger for shooting (then pick the direction). This would work, but it is not obvious to many players, and could be accidentally triggered in certain control options like the Rogue Touch "Classic" control scheme. I've actually gotten a lot of complaints about accidental triggering of inventory in RT because people would try to touch too close to the center for motion instead of at the edges and corners of the screen, and I'd like to avoid that if possible 2) Put your finger on the character then swipe outward to the direction you want to shoot. Has the benefit of combining two steps into one (selecting fire, then selecting direction to fire). Has the same downfall as #1 when playing with the "analog anywhere" controls I have, confusing someone if they touch the character and drag outward expecting to move. 3) Shooting could be a Context Action button item. The problem would be when something overrides it. Say you're standing on the stairs. You would not be able to shoot because the context would become "go down stairs". So, this would work in some situations, and prevent ranged attacks in others. It could be argued that this would add to the strategic aspects of gameplay, but might be annoying to others! 4) YOUR Idea here. Something I am missing? Speak up! For the record, #2 is sort of what I'm leaning towards right now (with #3 as a close second option), unless a better idea can be found. Ranged attacks are important in any roguelike, and will be a potentially greater factor in this game. I need an intuitive, simple way to handle it that does not conflict with existing corner buttons or control schemes... So please, let me know what you think! PS- I'm going to refrain from estimating a "release date" or even a "beta test date" for a bit longer, until I have pretty clear idea. Give me a few more weeks to figure that out
I'm thinking #2 sounds decent while #3 is right out! I like the concept of context sensitivity, just like in SoF, but can't see how the game would accurately guess when I'm intending a ranged attack as well as instantly assume my desired target when there are multiple beasties. IMHO, context sensitivity really works best in nice clear cut interactions with environmental objects (like, gee, there are stairs at your feet, odds are you'd like to use them as your default action). I'd almost like to say it would be the same with say, when on or adjacent to a fountain, that might be a little trickier. While "taking a drink" would be the most obvious, if the game supports actions like filling containers, dipping items, etc. there might be other possible actions to consider as well. I know a very intentional design decision by the SoF team is to always keep the contextual action item to one option, you might want to be a little bold and allow a few more options if absolutely needed while still trying to keep the contextual action list pretty tight.
It's fun to try to think through these types of problems... A similar post I made on my own forums brought some different opinions. It seems that depending on who you are, touching the character and swiping in the direction of a monster sounds like a very good or very bad idea! I can see the point that it could be a bit difficult for some people to master, and the problem that it's not immediately obvious or intuitive that the functionality even exists. Additional context buttons are a tough decision. I'm very hesitant to add more than a single touch point for each of the four corners. There's a certain symmetry and simplicity to that control scheme that makes me question what is really important enough to have dedicated space, and what should have alternate methods available to trigger them. If every developer put as much agonizing thought into the little details we'd have an app store full of incredibly intuitive stuff Let me try to break down the ranged combat here as seen in Rogue Touch and see if another idea presents itself: 1) Wield your bow or crossbow if not doing so already (takes multiple touches, and eats one turn of game time) 2) Trigger a ranged attack "request" by tapping your character or pressing the "r" button on the on-screen D-pad if playing in that mode. This pulls up a directional picker on screen. 3) Touch to pick the direction you want to shoot in (8 directions, N, S, E, W, NE, NW, SE, SW) 4) Repeat steps 2 & 3 as desired 5) Wield your melee weapon (mace, sword, whatever) again so you can do better in close range combat if the monster has survived to reach you! Note that switching back to your melee weapon takes one game turn, so you should do it while there is still one square between you and the beastie. To clarify up front: Spirit Hunter Mineko will operate more like Shiren the Wanderer for ranged attacks. There is no "switch to my ranged weapon" penalty, it is always available. You can shoot one turn and attack with your sword on the very next turn. That eliminates steps 1 and 5 immediately! So what I need is simple a way to encompass steps 2, 3 and 4: signal the desire to shoot at something (rather than move) and pick one of the 8 possible directions to shoot in. What would be ideal is something that minimizes individual screen presses, and is fairly obvious to the player. If we assume that all 4 corners of the UI are occupied (with one being a context sensitive action button), anyone have a brilliant idea they'd like to share to make this game easier and more fun to play??
Maybe you could drag from the character to the direction to shoot, as you do with the wands in Fargoal? Or a small icon at the bottom of the screen to switch from melee to ranged weapon, then a simple tap in the direction of the baddie?
Or, double-tap-hold is the other wand-aiming method we have, then release to fire... if double-tap isn't being used for anything, could even use that to fire immediately.
Medianotzu, sorry you missed it but the "touch character and swipe" method was tem #2 of mine several posts up. LordGek gave a thumbs up to it, sounds like you do as well, but I have also had bad reactions to that scheme. Double taps are certainly open for something. Depending on the control scheme selected by the user it could conflict with my "auto-run" plans though! The analog/swipe system is very nice and a lot of your players really seem to swear by it once they get used to it, but I might have to take a different path when it comes to ranged attacks. Maybe I'll come up with a solution so cool you'll have to re-incorporate the scheme into a Fargoal update! I actually have come up with a neat idea this evening that may be viable. But that may be the two plates of sushi and five beers talking... we'll see if it still sounds good in the morning! In the meantime, anyone with clever ideas for ranged weapon attacking please re-read the couple of posts above and fire away
Oops. I do like the idea of double tapping as well...although I actually had to stop playing Rogue Touch for a few days a while ago because of the double tapping to move...it made my thumb stiff and ache. Now I hold the device different when I do it though, so I'm good. Or you could have a control to shake the device to use ranged attack...or not. Shaking is the worst frigging control mechanic ever.
Honestly out of all different roguelike games I've played on iPhone, the absolute best, far and away, is the d-pad set up you have for Rogue Touch. If you don't include that, even if the context menu has a few more options, then I'll be sad. Like, I like that control method so much that I feel like you should license it out so that it can be implemented in games like Cavern.
Sorry to hear that you got "Rogue Claw" Personally when I play Rogue Touch I use the tip of my finger and the "classic" touch method. Then I double tap the screen edges to take off running down hallways. But I can imagine if you used the D-pad combined with double-taps it would get tiring for your thumb! The Accelerometer will never get used by me for games like these, I agree shaking the device is a bad idea, but even tilt to move is crazy for a roguelike. No way Wow, I'm honored that my D-pad is your favorite implementation! When I first designed it I wasn't really sure if people would like it or not. I think it works well because it gives the individual player a lot of options for how to use it: 1) Tap the direction arrows with your thumb, or tap and hold to continue motion in a given direction. 2) Double tap a direction arrow to run and auto-follow hallways. 3) Put your thumb in the middle and slide it in the direction you want to move. I'm going to do my best to include the both of the control methods from Rogue Touch to supplement the analog-anywhere / swipe system! The biggest hurdle I have is trying to implement new gameplay features for Mineko that will still be compatible with RT's control methods. ---- Speaking of control and ranged combat... My idea from last night appears to stand up under more sober scrutiny! I won't go into detail on it yet, I think it's perhaps a bit TOO simple and effective. Better to wait and show everyone instead.
Minkeo keeps falling back into the abyss of pages 2 - 10 of upcoming games. Sigh... makes me worry about the money I've invested! Anyway, I'm finishing this game no matter what. Try to stop me! Been a tough week for development here with consulting work going on. If you're following Roguelikes in general you've probably seen the release of 100 Rogues too. A promising game in need of optimization and some bug fixes, I've put in a few hours time talking with the main programmer for 100 Rogues to help them out. May get more in depth if they need it, but I promise it won't interfere with new progress on Mineko --- Crazy Possum asked me a question via PM the other day about "secret character" names, as seen in Rogue Touch. If you're unfamiliar (if so, go buy Rogue Touch darn it, I need the money ) the secret character names in RT allowed for different play styles, special starting equipment, and sometimes special abilities like night vision, regeneration, etc! Now, as the new game is about a very specific young lady, naming and secret character names don't make much sense. I very much agree that these made Rogue Touch more fun and added long-term value though. So with that in mind, there will be specialty mini-dungeons, and a large post-main-game dungeon that will have some extra flexibility- changing the rules of play, equipment, and so on, just as the secret character names did. --- Some nice supporters in the 100 Rogues thread have been asking how much longer will it be before Spirit Hunter Mineko is released... I still don't have an exact answer. I'd love to say Mineko will be ready SOON, but there are many aspects of the game that still need work. Artwork is a big problem at the moment. My tile-set artist has disappeared... If anyone reading knows someone who is good at making seamless pixel art tiles (like my caves shown in the tech-demo for example) please post here and get in touch! That would be paid work, named in credits of the game too So, the earliest possible point will likely be late June, if *everything* falls into place with other projects, programming, artwork, and music. If you're reading this and are a great pixel artist, you can help Mineko appear sooner than later!
Good on ya for helping out the 100 Rogues guys. You clearly have the outlook that what's good for the genre is good for the developers working in the genre and I totally agree with that perspective. It's really cool to see you and the Fargoal guys being so welcoming to those guys and Soulhinki as well. I'm liking 100 Rogues quite a lot, (although RT is still my favorite and I don't see that changing yet) but there is one major problem with that game's control method for me, and it's one that we were discussing in this thread earlier. Actually, I may have suggested it, or if not I was thinking of suggesting it--the tap on an enemy to activate a ranged attack. You specifically said in here that it wasn't a good method, and now 100 Rogues is the proof of that to me. Seriously, it makes the faerie wizard character pretty much unplayable for me. So...yeah...don't do that. Unless maybe you can have some kind of "smart" recognition that will register a tap that is not perfectly direct on the enemy's tile but within one adjacent tile's distance in each direction...then maybe it could work. But tapping directly on just the one tile...nuh-uh. By the way, I don't use the d-pad for RT, the "Rogue claw" (lol) came from holding the device in my hand and curling my thumb up with that same hand to double tap furiously through the dungeons. Basically, to rectify the strain it was putting on my hand, I simply move slower. Of course, I can't get as many runs in that way, but it's worth it over having the Rogue claw.
In case you were worried, playing 100 Rogues has only made me want Mineko even more, and I'm sure I'm not the only one .
Nice! I love mini-dungeons and love how, as pretty much little stand alone little bits, I'd think they'd be easy to expand on and could be as nasty as CD wants to make them as they're completely optional. At the risk of having virtual rocks thrown my way, I also see these as a great source of DLC revenue (although hopefully there will be options for those non-wi-fi inclined and that their gimmick and general difficulty can be nicely summed up in the IAP description)!
I have to ask - why not use "tap to go" for movement? I.e. tap where you want the character to go. Worked very well for me in Monster RPG 2. The only D-pad-like implementation I have enjoyed on the iplatform so far was in Space Miner and it doesn't look like something easily adaptable to a roguelike.
I don't think there's any way to get that to work well for a game like this to be honest. MRPG2 is a totally different kind of game where you move through a map and don't have to worry about tactical battle situations until you get to the battle screen, but in a roguelike you have to deal with tactical movement in a turn-based situation constantly. You'd find yourself constantly wishing you could cancel your movement in that sort of situation for this kind of game.
Some thoughtful discussion on control schemes here guys, thanks! We have lots of possibilies, here is an updated list: * The "classic touch" interface of Rogue Touch: Imagine a the screen broken into a large "#" the center square contains our hero, the outer 8 sections are where you can tap to move one square or double tap to run in a direction (and auto-follow hallways). Your hand can occasionally block the action, but with run and auto-follow it is far less often than say, 100 Rogues in it's current form. * The "D-pad" from Rogue Touch: Take that large "#" and compress it down to fit in the lower 1/3 of the screen, add a little extra secret sauce for being able to play with or without lifting your thumb, and voila! A favorite that many people want. I really hope to bring some form of D-pad in, as long as it doesn't conflict with my other control plans. * Swipe to move, or virtual analog stick anywhere on screen: Loved by Sword of Fargoal players, this is often seen as an unacceptable option for turn based gaming. Using it in the exact manner that Fargoal does I'd tend to agree. My tech demo uses a slightly different take on this, and it seems to be pretty responsive to stopping on a dime where you'd want to. Pretty sure this one will make it into the final game! * Touch a location to go there: Now, this seems like a neat idea on the surface. My background tile grid is 40x40, which coincidentally is the minimum size that Apple's UI guidelines recommend for touch elements on screen! Several things stand out as potential pitfalls though- due to the close up view, you could only initiate a move of 3 to 4 squares in any given direction. Your hand would also block the screen when issuing moves. And maybe the worst- you could get caught up in some trap or ambushed along the way that could have been avoided if you'd single stepped forward and allowed the light and shadow to change. Medianotzu is right here, you'd be cursing and wishing you could take back moves constantly with this method. So far we're only talking about MOVEMENT... What happens when you want to add in a simple long range attack method too? If we assume you always have a long-range weapon handy, and it takes zero game turns to switch between the ranged and melee weapons, then it boils down: 1) Signal your intent for ranged attack 2) Pick the direction or monster to attack Now, what you want is something that complements the movement scheme perfectly! * If you are using a "tap" to move like Classic Touch, Touch a location to go there, or to a certain extent, the D-pad: It would be best to avoid tapping a target or direction, unless it's a modal pop-up direction picker like Rogue Touch uses for throwing, shooting, and zapping. If you just "tap a monster" to trigger the ranged attack, that action can be easily mis-interpreted by the game engine as a desire to move CLOSER to that enemy! I think 100 Rogues suffers from this right now. * If you are using a "swipe" or analog anywhere system like Fargoal or my Mineko cave tech-demo: It would be best to avoid swiping from character to the enemy target for ranged attacks. Why? Because the same problem could occur- it may be misinterpreted as the desire to move CLOSER to that enemy! I may be mistaken but I think I've seen reports of this from Fargoal players. So in my opinion the best control scheme will be a cross between these ideas- Swipe / Analog Stick Anywhere to move around (with tweaking to prevent undesired motion) combined with Tap-To-Target for ranged attacks. The less optimal but still quite playable method: A Rogue Touch style D-pad can probably make an appearance, regular RT players know it gets re-used to select direction for ranged attacks. Most any other combination of these movement types would only end in frustration or possibly premature death for the player! ---- Other topics on Mineko: Still Critical: Artwork is a big problem at the moment. My tile-set artist has disappeared... If anyone reading knows someone who is good at making seamless pixel art tiles (like my caves shown in the tech-demo for example) please post here and get in touch! That would be paid work, named in credits of the game too In App Purchase: Nothing is currently planned for IAP, but if anything of that nature comes up for Spirit Hunter Mineko I'll be sure to make it optional so that you don't need any of it to make the game "playable" ---- 100 Rogues: My only discussion with them so far was the several hour talk on Thursday where I laid out *many* possible actions for them. Maybe my brain dump was a bit overwhelming for the team, but the iPhone is a complex device and OS! For now I'm standing back and letting Wes, Keith, and Blake try to work things out for themselves. If asked to get into the source code at some point, of course I'll be able to give more swift and direct help! Hopefully they are able to salvage the situation before the masses get too savage in their attacks!
