iPad Nanosaur 2

Discussion in 'iPhone and iPad Games' started by ReformatPlanet, Oct 15, 2008.

  1. thom-22

    thom-22 Well-Known Member

    Jul 30, 2008
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    That's a very fair review. But like some posters in this thread you expose your naivete of the economic and technical realities of software development with "If Pangea wakes up and makes a few simple changes...". You think Pangea isn't aware that some portion of the player base believes the save system is inadequate? It's not a question of being unaware or uncaring. If it makes sense from a technical/business perspective to add in-level saving, they will. But I'm guessing it's not cost-effective or they would have done it already. You might as well say that Microsoft needs to wake up because MS Office can't do what iMovie can do. MS Office is what it is and it isn't iMovie. The Pangea game engine is what it is for various reasons, but it's awfully presumptuous to assume they include ignorance or indifference.

    Excellent point. If Nanosaur 2 and Bugdom 2 did allow save-anywhere, you just know we'd be hearing complaints about how short the games are. The strategy you describe for playing these games is exactly the one I used when I played Nanosaur 2, Bugdom 1&2 and Otto Matic on the Mac years ago.
     
  2. STP_Steve

    STP_Steve Well-Known Member

    Sep 5, 2008
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    Editor of slidetoplay.com
    San Francisco, CA
    Oh, it does. I just think a lot of the people who play this aren't going to have the skill or the patience necessary to get anywhere in it, and it doesn't need to be that way.
     
  3. STP_Steve

    STP_Steve Well-Known Member

    Sep 5, 2008
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    Editor of slidetoplay.com
    San Francisco, CA
    I understand the point you're trying to make, but I think you're wrong. As a former mobile games developer (at VGM), I have a pretty good idea of the cost/benefit equation here. I don't see how it would be economically or technically infeasible to add a single mid-level save (perhaps after you've found a certain number of eggs) to each level of this game; it would snapshot a few game state variables and start you off as you would ordinarily start a level.

    You seem to be arguing that those complaining about this issue are making unfair assumptions and aren't being objective, but you're making exactly the same error by "guessing" that it's infeasible.
     
  4. I have a few hours sleep and find multiple posts on here now saying people on here should stop complaining and email the developer, it's not their fault, you shouldn't accuse the developer of not caring, etc etc...

    I DID email the developer when Bugdom first came out, requesting tighter control and a mid-level save. He responded about the control and ignored the save. I emailed them again, this time just mentioning a better save system, and had no response.
    No response in my book means ignorance. I stick by my words.

    That being said, I realize it's fair to say we aren't getting anywhere with this argument. There are clearly two sides of the fence that simply won't meet in the middle. So perhaps we ought to just call it a day on this thread, otherwise things will start to get heated up too much, and none of us wants that, including me. I joined this site to contribute and discuss, and hopefully make some friends. Let's not turn it into something ugly, what do we say?
     
  5. thom-22

    thom-22 Well-Known Member

    Jul 30, 2008
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    I never said anything about feasibility, I said it might not be in Pangea's best economic interest. So you know the cost/benefit equation; so do I, that's easy. But there's no way you, I, or anyone else outside Pangea knows the hard values that have to be plugged into the equation to determine whether or not it makes business sense to add this or that feature, not without having seen Pangea's code to estimate how much resources are required on the one hand; and not without knowing Pangea's financial numbers that also factor into such an equation. If you're as schooled in cost-benefit analysis as you say, then you know it doesn't matter whether the potential return on investment is positive; it has to be higher than the potential return on investment that could be had from all the other ways that Pangea could invest those resources. Nobody but Pangea knows what those opportunity costs might be.

    I've never made any secret of the fact that I'm just guessing here, or rather hypothesizing, that Pangea's behavior can be explained by standard and acceptable business practices and rational economic decision-making. My hypothesis is backed up by the fact that that's what all businesses have to do to stay in business.

    As an alternative, I could also hypothesize that Pangea's releases are the way they are because that's their game-design philosophy. It's a perfectly legitimate philosophy, lots of hand-held and console games are designed without in-level saving and lots of people happily play them, just as lots of people are happily playing Bugdom 2 and Nanosaur 2 on iPhone. (Lots of people avoid games with that kind of design, too, which is why it's good that reviews and forum posts make a point of criticizing the save system.)

    But I've seen no evidence whatever that supports hypotheses that Pangea is lazy or indifferent or asleep at the wheel. That's why I label them unfair accusations.
     
  6. thom-22

    thom-22 Well-Known Member

    Jul 30, 2008
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    Your post wasn't up at the time I started to write the post that follows, wastedyuthe, so please don't think I was purposefully ignoring you. I'll stop here. Except to say that I truly hope your requests are granted and you're able to enjoy the games you've paid for. :)
     
  7. Thanks. I have said all I am going to say too. I shan't post on this thread anymore. Let's shake hands and move on :)
     
  8. moopf

    moopf Well-Known Member

    Sep 16, 2008
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    Actually, it's not "pre-set up" at all for developers. All you get is a call to a method when the application is due to close, you have to do all the state saving (and loading again when app starts up) yourself. It takes some work and, depending on the inner workings of the code (remember, these are ports from a platform where this most likely wasn't a consideration at all, either for users or the developers), it might be more difficult than you realise. That's no reason not to add it but the way I see Pangea's offerings currently, they seem to really be just fairly quick ports from pre-existing versions to make money from a new platform. They can offer them cheaper than the desktop versions because they are ports, so don't have the same development costs as the originals, and they don't really seem to be taking into account the difference in what a user on a mobile platform requires.

    It's amazing how many games do this on the app store (although it is getting less and less thankfully) and, although it takes a bit of work, it should be in there 100%. Otherwise, you take a call or answer an SMS or just need to stop for a while and you're back to the start of the level - that's no good and it's really just not making an effort to tailor the game for the different needs of the platform.

    Overall Pangea's offerings do leave me cold though. Enigmo is entertaining but the rest seem a bit cheesy in my opinion, especially in looks.
     
  9. davidmdowning42

    davidmdowning42 Well-Known Member

    Aug 12, 2008
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    I was hoping that a dev would chime in to let us know how easy or not this was. I'm glad to know that it's more complicated than I thought. But like you said, it should still be there.

    Here's another question: Is saving the "state" when you exit and just returning when you come back easier, or harder than adding specific "save points" within the levels (or anywhere else.) I would think that the state thing would be easier, but I have no idea and I'm quite curious. I'd be fine with no save file system what-not if I could just stop and resume.

    That's the thing, I'm not asking for the game to be easier. I don't need it to not make me start over when I die. I just don't want it to make me start over when I answer the phone.

    By the way- for all you complaining about the controls people. I wanna know, are there ANY accelerometer controlled games that you DO like the controls for? If I ever heard a comparison to one that you did like, I'd take such complaints more seriously. I think the controls for Bugdom are great. I can only assume that they are just fine for Nanosaur as well. I gotta say- its a learning curve. You just actually have to learn how to use this new kind of control. If you just hate all accelerometer controlled games, then you done bought the wrong game system.
     
  10. Oliver

    Oliver Well-Known Member

    I like accelerometer controls in:

    - Trism
    - MotoChaser
    - Motion X Poker
    - Circulate Prologue
    - Dizzy Beee
    - Solar Blaster
    - Chopper
    - X-Plane
    - Aqua Hoops
    - SolarQuest
     
  11. moopf

    moopf Well-Known Member

    Sep 16, 2008
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    Actually I think they could pretty much leverage the same code if written correctly (as you're essentially doing the same thing) but, with the ability to exit the app and just come straight back to where you were, save points within levels are fairly moot I guess. With either option you're basically storing the same information and well written state saving code could, in theory, serve both purposes.

    I was never going to release my game without the ability to dip out and come back to where you were - it's the nature of the platform because it's also your phone, your text messaging service, your email on the go and a host of other things that potentially interrupt play.
     
  12. moopf

    moopf Well-Known Member

    Sep 16, 2008
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    Always found the accelerometer controls in Trism infuriating as it often doen't seem to pick up on which way you tilt the device, or pick it up too slowly, and so your pieces drop in the wrong direction to that in which you intended. Dizzy Bee's accelerometer controls are good, however, in my experience. Haven't played the others so can't comment :)
     
  13. #33 wastedyuthe, Oct 16, 2008
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2008
    Blimey I said I wouldn't post on this thread again, and there you go now assuming that anyone moaning about the controls can't get on with any accelerometer games in general.
    Well I do! I have most of the racers like Asphalt4, Raging Thunder, Cro-Mag, Moto Chaser, and get along fine with all their accelerometer controls. I also have Chopper, where you tilt to manouvre a helicopter and blow up tanks, shoot soldiers, land on buildings to rescue people. There are others I have- Dizzy Bee, Papi Jump, Star Smasher, and X-Plane. Hell even X-Plane, the flight sim, is easier to control than Bugdom.
    There! NOW I'm done.
     
  14. davidmdowning42

    davidmdowning42 Well-Known Member

    Aug 12, 2008
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    #34 davidmdowning42, Oct 16, 2008
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2008
    I guess it is a lot more subjective than I thought. (Well, obviously it's subjective!) Because I can't control Cro-Mag worth a d@#n. Then again, that game doesn't make it real obvious where exactly the track is and I haven't devoted the necessary time to learn the tracks. Which is a perfectly reasonable skill for a racer to make you develop.

    I'd tell you my thing about the Bugdom neutral button, but I see that I already did that in another thread.

    http://forums.toucharcade.com/showthread.php?t=357&highlight=bugdom

    So how would you improve the Bugdom controls? Are they just too sensitive? Do you only like them for flying games and puzzlers? (I'll get you to post again yet!)

    By the way, I don't grok the "heated" thing. I ain't mad. Promise. Just an interesting discussion. I wasn't assuming that "that anyone moaning about the controls can't get on with any accelerometer games in general." I was asking. And you answered. Thanks!
     
  15. Yes that's probably me getting heated up a little, which is why I didn't want to post on this thread anymore (I broke that rule didn't I?!). But you are allowing me to post again, so I am let off the hook ;)
    How would I improve the controls? Well firstly, even on the lowest setting they are still far too sensitive for me, and I don't want to keep pressing the neutral button just to stop running around like a headless chicken. Him running too fast doesn't help here. Sometimes you are afraid to use the neutral button as you may well get hit by an enemy throwing a bottle top for example. Then there are parts in the toy room level, where you walk into a block to automatically push it. I emailed the dev to suggest the game recognises if the block is already against the wall so the bug won't try and move it, allowing easier jumping onto said block. A lot of the time I was trying to jump on it, but instead ended up pushing the block when it was already against the wall. I also suggested the developer look into a way of touching the screen to tell the bug where to go, or which item to pick up, or which enemy to attack. I never had a response to that, so I don't know if they did look into that method. But I'd have something like that if I could do a game like this myself.
     
  16. davidmdowning42

    davidmdowning42 Well-Known Member

    Aug 12, 2008
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    It would be cool to touch the screen to get items or attack enemies, though I wouldn't want it to entirely replace the accelerometer- but THAT I imagine IS an engine rewriting sort of thing. So here's hopin' but I ain't holdin' my breath.

    Seems like they could ratchet down the sensitivity without too much problem?

    How are my ingnorant guesses moopf?
     
  17. crunc

    crunc Well-Known Member

    Aug 11, 2008
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    Regarding trism, the problem with this game is that it is designed to be played with your iPod touch titled at a 45 degree angle left/right. That's an artifact of the fact that it it uses triangles. In an attempt to alleviate this the game gives an indication of which way it thinks you are holding the iPod, but in the end the only way to get consist behavior is to hold your iPod touch cockeyed. It's why I always describe Trism as, "a more awkward to play version of Bejeweled". I'm not a fan of the game.
     
  18. moopf

    moopf Well-Known Member

    Sep 16, 2008
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    Lol, you can certainly mess around with sensitivity, as this is handled in code. But the accelerometer is an interesting beast anyway. As soon as you create interaction that's physical and analog, which is basically what this is, you start to realise that your controls are subject to the different ways in which people hold their device, move their device, and feel comfortable with it in their hands. And with the iPhone you're also holding it, generally with two hands or even moving it with one had whilst touching the screen with the other (trying to interact in two different ways at the same time) whilst trying to watch the screen as well.

    The Wii controller, for instance, doesn't have the complexity of issues but still can be awkward to control. You hold it with one hand and point it, generally, which is a different action and much less prone to differences. And you're not trying to watch a screen on it at the same time either :)

    I think the answer lies in giving as much choice to the user as possible but the complexity with this lies in explaining those options in a way that makes it easy to understand and quick to tailor them to how you, as a user, want it to operate. It also creates an issue that, with too much freedom to change, the difficulty of a game could be wiped out by allowing settings that make it too easy.

    The accelerometer is also a novel feature and so many devs have thought that they have to use it. Take RocknRoll for instance. This is absolutely unplayable with the default, accelerometer control. With the touch control it is playable. I'm sure we'll end up seeing some better usage of the accelerometer once devs have got over this feeling that they have to make use of it and generally learn to control it better.
     
  19. STP_Steve

    STP_Steve Well-Known Member

    Sep 5, 2008
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    Editor of slidetoplay.com
    San Francisco, CA
    Yep, that's fair. Pangea's a good developer that's been in business for a very long time, so I'm sure they do evaluate opportunity costs when making feature set choices. They are probably doing what's best for them...in the short term, anyway.

    However, there is no question in my mind that games like Bugdom 2 and Nanosaur 2 would be much improved for a wide majority of players, if Pangea tailored them a bit to the conforms of the iPhone platform. I think it's short-sighted for them to alienate as many customers as they are at this juncture; I don't think it's the right decision. Folks on this board may well be satisfied with those games as-is, but I think they're in the minority.

    In any case, I'm curious to see what Pangea's upcoming "original" titles do in terms of platform-specific usability features.
     
  20. vandy1997

    vandy1997 Well-Known Member

    Aug 27, 2008
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    It would be great if Pangea would allow the game to be saved at any time and tweaked the accelerometer a bit. The graphics are really amazing, and the game is fun. I don't play it as much because I have to restart the game every time, so that gets boring. Hints as to what to do or which direction to follow should be an option, but not mandatory. I like to figure it out as I go along, but sometimes I need a minor hint as to what to do. The other characters in the game usually give you advice as to what needs to be done. You just have to roam around to get clues from the other characters. That adds to the fun, at least I think so.

    This would be a great game with a save at any time or save on exit feature. I could even live with the accelerometer as it is now, as I can adjust to it, and the neutral button usually works well!

    I look forward to original iPhone apps from Pangea! Hopefully, they will be tailored to the iPhones features!
     

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