Mass Free To Play Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'General Game Discussion and Questions' started by hitmantb, Mar 13, 2015.

  1. hitmantb

    hitmantb Well-Known Member

    Nov 15, 2011
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    #1 hitmantb, Mar 13, 2015
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2015
    In all honesty financials for a MMO is its life and blood. Unlike $2.99 games you play for a week and throw away, these games last forever and players will spend way more hours (and potentially, much more money via IAP), it is important they know the publisher has enough revenue to keep things running smoothly and offer enough new contents over time.

    I just find it funny that there are people who think Gameloft is a greedy corporation making a ton of money, when they are the last samurai of original console style/production value games on mobile, and really struggles to compete with the superpowers of this space. They are much closer to Zynga these days, just look up GLOFF US on Yahoo Finance.

    Mobile gaming industry is a zero sum game. There are only so many whales on this planet, if they are spending money on one title, it is unlikely they will maintain another game simultaneously. As an indie you can afford to make a low production value game and survive because you are just trying to make your salary equivalent, as a listed company with high production value games, it is cut throat out there and you go from an angel to a penny stock in a hurry if you can not crack top grossing charts.

    I been praying for a mega turn around for Gameloft ever since I read the preview of DH5 on TA. I love what they represent on mobile: high production value PC/console style games. I love the effort they put into DH5. The production value, the rich playing modes and great mix of Puzzles and Dragons style lottery and Clash of Clans style base building on top of a Diablo-lite. It is as good of an effort as anyone who can give with a Diablo-lite on mobile, but I am very sad it may not be enough to revive the genre on iOS, looking at the numbers so far.

    The DH5 team is an amazingly talented team and deserves all the credit in the world to take a dated formula so far above and beyond the competition. It was a heroic effort against a massive uphill battle. I will continue to pray for that elusive mega hit that turns them around. I just don't know if Gameloft has enough leadership from France to save the company before it sinks for good.
     
  2. sivad

    sivad Well-Known Member

    Mar 28, 2013
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    My problem with this version is the same as I posted in the game forum, the games you continue to talk about that are popular amongst mobile gamers (CoC, heroes charge, candy crush) appeal to a large group of ios and android users because of their time restrictions and ease of gameplay. DH5 is not that. I think that's what GL wanted to create but they created a mess. Too much going on in the game to mash in. The average (not all, I said average) user is not going to put the amount of time in to a game they have to do missions on and then organize to defend their strongholds.

    They would be better suited to make a spinoff version of DH5 heroes and put into a CoC clone similar to how they took characters from order and chaos and created their CCG and MOBA games.

    This game is too mashed together trying to mix genres in a game.

    Free to play is the only way to go to make mkney in the mobile world, I'm not going to argue that, I know the mix and please don't post any more stats because I don't care to see them anymore.

    I play Path of exile and DOTA on steam, which are free to play, point being, if you are going to vest time into a gameof large scale, it won't be on mobile and that is where GL is going to ultimately fall short of keeping up with the mobile top 10 that seems to be the sticking point for all free to play arguments. GL would fair better in steam.

    Just my 2 cents
     
  3. hitmantb

    hitmantb Well-Known Member

    Nov 15, 2011
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    I would argue it takes as much time to play Clash of Clans at a high level as World of Warcraft or any of the console/PC games, I eventually burned out and quit because it was too hardcore and time consuming.

    I think the core diablo-lite formula is dead on mobile, Gameloft did everything they could, mixing the base building of #1 game in mobile, COC, and the lottery of #2 game in mobile, Puzzles and Dragons. It was a bold experiment to save their franchise, but I just don't know if a diablo-lite game with virtual controls can really make it big anymore outside of specific markets (China, Korea).

    I consider this a success if it can be top 100 grossing 3 months from now.
     
  4. sivad

    sivad Well-Known Member

    Mar 28, 2013
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    At a high level, one could argue that anything requires time, but the core group of "elite" CoC gamers are also not the only people making that game money.

    If all mobile devs base whether a genre is dead by the standards of whether they can crack the top 100 grossing games, then quick fix games is all that we will have to play.

    My point from before was not that hack n slash isn't fun on mobile, it is, but DH5 strayed from that in an attempt bring more into the fray. It still is a button masher but it's lacking in the form of action RPGs.

    My current fav is KingsRoad, free to play, but a great game for action rpg enthusiasts. It is as advertised. If humble made KingsRoad 2 and made it a clone of quest for mighty loot, I would be disappointed and not play, b/c you don't keep the same name and switch the entire landscape of the game for a sequel.
     
  5. hitmantb

    hitmantb Well-Known Member

    Nov 15, 2011
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    #5 hitmantb, Mar 13, 2015
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2015
    Freemium games only have 5-20% paying customers. The hardcore whales pay the bills. Of course you need a gigantic player base to attract the whales but like anything in life, wealth is in the hands of a small group.

    It is perfectly fine to enjoy niche games like KingsRoad, just don't expect it to have the production value needed to be a huge hit and sustained content updates.
     
  6. Kenan2000

    Kenan2000 Well-Known Member

    Nov 25, 2013
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    Hitmanb,mate,let's be honest - these 2:99,4:99,6:99,9:99,14:99 games meant to have a replay value,something that your favorite free2play games with no in-depth,no actual gameplay of whatsoever don't have.

    Can I restart clash of clans and replay it and have a lot of fun with it?No.
    Can I restart heroes charge and replay it and have a lot of fun with it?No.

    Look at KOTOR,Gta,the quest+all of it's expansions,aralon,terraria,mhfu,Mission Europa,oddworld - stranger's wrath,bioshock,etc my list of greatest premium games with actual replay value can go on and on.

    Tell me one thing though,why do you think that ios is full of freemium games just cause it is a mobile platform?
    It is not like someone has stated :"Ios is a mobile platform - it meant to have sh%tty freemium games with energy bars,no replay value + they meant to be played for like 10 minutes or so!"

    Mobile devices,ios devices,ipads in general make progress every year.
    It is a dumb thing to say that pc/Xbox/PS are not meant to be played for short amounts of time JUST CAUSE they cannot be put into your God damn bag or your pocket.I am talking about IPADS and tablets in general.

    Why cannot Xbox and PS have so many freemium games either?Just cause they are not mobile devices?

    About MMOS- one of the best freemium MMOS on ios is Graal - MMO games with replay value.
    I don't know if there are any other MMOs in the world where you are not forced to get new gear each year.
    Graal era really reminds me of Gta online.

    You should check it out but you'll probably criticize developers of it for making a game with a light,soft freemium model.
     
  7. Anonomation

    Anonomation 👮 Spam Police 🚓

    I agree, with all of your points, but Graal has its share of clones, immature users, and grinding such as any other MMO. I tried Graal era and it was a mashup of high level players running around killing people and cluelessness on where to go next to level up my character. It is a good game though imo.
     
  8. sinagog

    sinagog Well-Known Member

    Aug 15, 2014
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    Threads like this give me that skin-crawling feeling like I'm trapped in the middle of a summit conference with a room full of real-life Patrick Batemans.
     
  9. Anonomation

    Anonomation 👮 Spam Police 🚓

    The Bateman zone
     
  10. hitmantb

    hitmantb Well-Known Member

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    #10 hitmantb, Mar 15, 2015
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2015
    You need to wake up.

    Open your iOS device, go to top charts, look at top 100 grossing, count how many paid games are there. 1, Minecraft, THAT IS IT, and it is not even top 20. A few years ago EA would make original paid mobile games like Dead Space with good production value. Where are these games now?

    It is 2015, people who want single player games that last 10-20 hours, 10 year old console ports, are the extreme minority. You will not see original, high production paid games ever again. Either garbage console ports to make a quick buck, or freemium. I mean I loved Baldur's Gate 2 . . . I considered it one of the greatest games ever made . . . when I played it 15 years ago. It is like Michael Jordan trying to play NBA at age 50 against LeBron you know?

    Times do change and I suggest you look at how even the PC industry has shifted from premium to freemium, the top three games on PC last year, Crossfire, League of Legends, Dungeon Fighter, all freemium, all generated 800 million - 1 billion last year, more than any paid game. Diablo 3 took three years to reach the same milestone and it has been the most successful paid game. Even Blizzard is moving to freemium with Hearthstone and Storm of Heroes. It is the 2015 business model.

    Replay value? Clash of Clans is far and away the most competitive mobile game ever made. Highest skill ceiling, deepest strategy when you are trying to win a 50vs50 clan war. I suggest you watch some high level play on Twitch. It is the Starcraft of mobile. It is the single most successful game on any platform. 1 billion in 2013, 1.8 billion in 2014, 2 billion this year. More money than any COD game, more money than any GTA game, more money than Avatar! And I can assure you players competing in crystal league clan wars do not have time to play other games.

    But you can continue to believe the single player games against AI is where replay value and AI is at, while the rest of the world move on and bury the past. The paid model on mobile is dead. Even Infinity Blade series is dead, canceled the Infinity Blade Dungeon game. Small studios may try to play in the minor league and create some niche games, but you will not see big studio make any more original paid games UNLESS it is an old console port to milk off nostalgia.
     
  11. psj3809

    psj3809 Moderator

    Jan 13, 2011
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    Are you just trying to wind people up?

    You just won't stop going on about freemium and the frickin charts all the time. Just move on, you play freemium we'll play premium but do you have to lecture people non stop ??

    It's constanty 'I'm right you're not as the charts don't lie'. You've said that a 1000 times now can we just move on
     
  12. Nekku

    Nekku Well-Known Member

    May 31, 2013
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    #12 Nekku, Mar 15, 2015
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2015
    Hint: you arent allowed to have your very own personal opinion on premium/freemium without him trying to prove you wrong. I don't think the word 'opinion' doesnt even exists in his (and some other users on TA) vocabulary.

    Now be prepared to have another wall of text about top grossing charts thrown at you.

    It's like arguing about which color someone prefers and then someone tells you that your favorite color is shit and choosing it was probably the worst decision in your life just because he and the majority prefer another color and -most importantly, especially on this topic- by stating it as fact.
    Completely pointless.

    Prefering an gameplay model is surely not a rare case where an opinion actually 'can' be wrong.
    It's about personal taste. Period.
     
  13. hitmantb

    hitmantb Well-Known Member

    Nov 15, 2011
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    There is a difference between "favorite" and "best". Clash of Clans is not my current favorite game, just like LeBron James is not my favorite NBA player.

    It doesn't mean they are not the best in their category by every objective measure. In COC's case, whether it is box office success, player base, skill required at top of the ladder, and depth. It may or may not be your favorite genre, but it sure as hell is the king of mobile games.
     
  14. Der-Kleine

    Der-Kleine Well-Known Member

    What I'm reading:

    "You may not like this game, but you had better accept that it is objectively the best mobile game ever, because clearly games can be rated objectively."
     
  15. Kenan2000

    Kenan2000 Well-Known Member

    Nov 25, 2013
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    'Sigh',I was expecting a smarter answer from you.

    1)Nobody says that freemium games suck but they are not best either JUST CAUSE developers gain more profit with freemium than with premium.

    I love freemium games either as long as the IAP model is not too strict,not too complicated.
    I will accept a good,fair IAP model for a freemium game with in-depth,actual gameplay and the most important thing - fun.

    I've played dh5 for a while now and I can say that the IAP model is pretty good and not too strict,like some people said:"It's fine".It is super fun,it has a nice gameplay,it has a story and a fun multiplayer mode unlike the "clash of clans"or "candy crush saga"or "puzzle dragons"or whatever it was called.

    If the game offers no gameplay at all,no in-depth and the most important thing - no fun at all,then it sucks and that's a HELL OF A good excuse to make the IAP model less strict.

    2)Your competition against my replay value is an idiotic argument,some people love pvp and some people love pve so,would you kindly,don't mention the competition thing again.
    There are dungeons and arenas,there are raids and battlegrounds.That's it,you cannot argue about this nor I can.

    3)"Best" premium games cannot make as much money as "best"freemium games but that's for now cause there are ads + amount of downloads for a free game,that's what brings them money.

    4)You cannot say that freemium will rid of premium cause that's wrong and incorrect,freemium games won't exist without premium games.
    You need to make a great freemium model if you want to gain a lot of money from your freemium game and that requires tons of money.Supercell just got lucky,blizzard acquired money from WoW as an instance.

    Plus if you'll remove premium games,there will be much,much less players.I don't even have to explain why or do you want to know?Well,here is the answer - freemium games require too much time to spend on them - you cannot play 3 freemium MMOS at the same time.

    Premium is always a good and a quick cash grab,if you make a freemium game you need a HELL OF A lot of money cause freemium games are not something that can be beaten in 10-20 hours.

    I might be wrong at some points but most of the people here will understand me,it is hard to explain why freemium cannot exist without premium but the main reason is the time.Ain't nobody got time for that?
     
  16. sinagog

    sinagog Well-Known Member

    Aug 15, 2014
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    #16 sinagog, Mar 15, 2015
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2015
    ----
     
  17. hitmantb

    hitmantb Well-Known Member

    Nov 15, 2011
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    You can not be the most successful title on any entertainment platform (once you count COC's 2013-2015 revenue) without being one of the greatest games ever made period.

    There are a lot of games I never got into because of their genre, Civilization series, Gran Turismo series, just to name a few, doesn't mean they weren't the greatest games of their specific genres.

    DH5 is addictive because it took the elements of the titans of COC/PAD. I personally prefer Diablo-lite style game play over mobile RTS/Match-3, so it is my favorite title of the moment. But the other two titles are pretty much the greatest ever in their own genre. DH5 is still very far from their level in overall greatness.
     
  18. psj3809

    psj3809 Moderator

    Jan 13, 2011
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    This is going round in circles. Some people love freemium, some dont.

    Thankfully theres lots of great games out there for everyone. All because 'game a' makes billions doesnt mean its a great game , just means the masses have got into it (Look at Flappy Bird and how popular that was, or the Spice Girls selling more records in the 90's than say Radiohead). Perhaps Justin Bieber is the best person ever in the world as he has more twitter followers.

    Either way lets just play some games and move on from the usual arguments.
     
  19. fishil

    fishil Member

    Nov 29, 2009
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    But.. but... I can't really sleep until I convince everyone and their grandma that freemium game is the bestest thing evarrrr !!!!
     
  20. #20 TheOutlander, Mar 16, 2015
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2015
    This thread just keeps getting better and better.
    Ok, in all seriousness, I think that both premium and freemium have their audiences and their pros and cons, yes, usually a premium game will make less money but that doesn't make it neither bad or good, you just can't say a game is good or bad depending on their profits, that would be the same as to say that CoD or FIFA are better than Wolfenstein or TLOU.
     

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