Well, the numbers don't lie though. When we look at the number of people that die from alcohol and alcohol related accidents vs. those from weed....it's pretty obvious that one is more harmful than the other.....and like you said, it's not all about death. Well, the studies also show (see the link I posted earlier) that alcohol is way more addictive, more intoxicating, makes people more aggressive, etc...... I agree that marijuana has it's problems, just like any drug....but I just don't see any good reason why it should remain illegal when it's not any worse than alcohol, with a lot of studies pointing to it being much less harmful. It should at least be decriminalized.
No, I guess that was a cheap shot. Alcohol kills lots of people, pot doesn't. Sure, there's more to it than that, but the point I was trying to back up was what jeffy was saying: that having something as dangerous as alcohol be legal while locking people in prisons for smoking pot is ridiculous and hypocritical. I never said that pot was totally harmless, but in my experience it's a bit more dangerous than coffee (and alcohol is off in a totally separate league). If I was bored enough, I bet I could track down a bunch of studies about the dangers of caffeine. Should we try the prohibition failure that we tried with alcohol to save people from caffeine? If we do, do you want to bet that demand for caffeine won't go down significantly (if at all)? It won't. If demand is there (like it is for pot), people will line up to supply it. Who would you rather have thriving on all of these transactions, regulated businesses or gangs of dangerous criminals?
Ok - one last thing to think about - concerning which is worse. Let's just say you live in a city - say 50,000 people. And in that city there are 3 murders each year, and 500 burglaries. If you survey people - which is worse - murder or burglary - most people (I'm assuming) will say murder. But if you survey your town, which they consider a bigger problem - they would likely say burglary - it happens much more frequently. Turn it around and make burglaries few and murders many, and you have a double whammy. Alcohol is used regularly by 52% of adults over age 18 (http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/series/sr_10/sr10_249.pdf). So with 330 million Americans - not sure of adult population but let's say it's half even though it is likely much higher than that. So, 80 million people drink, compared with about 14 million people that smoke weed. Which is more likely to be a problem - regardless of the "seriousness"? Of course there are going to be lots ,ore alcohol issues - there are 5 times as many people who drink. And, what are the alcohol issues that make the press? DUI, child and spouse abuse, etc. You don't hear about the marijuana issues because the numbers pale in comparison - just like you would not hear about the occasional murder - or it would be quickly forgotten because the nect day there would be news on 2 or 3 more burglaries. ( and I am likely overemphasizing my point, because I in no way am trying to say marijuana use is as bad as, or related to murder) Anyways, alcohol has problems - it affects every organ system adversely when over used. Dependence ruins millions of lives, families suffer terribly, the children are more likely to be alcoholic (15 % lifetime incidence of becoming dependent). Drunk drivers kill thousands of people. But, how do you know the same thing would not happen when 80 million people are using marijuana? We may not see issues because the numbers are small, and the numbers have always been small when compared with alcohol. Maybe marijuana causes all sorts of issues that come up when a significant part of the population uses it? Of the 14 million people that use marijuana, about 6-7 million either meet abuse, or dependence criteria by the DSM IV, so marijuana looks to be addictive in half the population that uses it. Imagine if alcohol had addiction of 50%. Only about 10%. So we will have 40 million or more people addicted to marijuana - is that good? Even if it's "safe" and all people do is get giggly, and even if they don't get in car accidents? Addiction of any form is a terrible disease and takes a toll on the individual, their families, friends, and society. There are huge costs both monetary, and non monetary treating, or not treating. Anyways, I'm going to bed.
14 million people smoking isn't such a small number. You'd think we'd see some of the signs if weed was anywhere near as dangerous as alcohol. I don't really care about the numbers though. I've been around lots of smoking, drinking, and other drugs in my life. I'd still have to say that marijuana seems slightly more dangerous than coffee - and alcohol is up there with harder drugs. 50% addiction with pot and 10% with alcohol? That sounds like total BS to me. I'd guess that those numbers come from different studies, with different definitions of addiction. I'm just going on my own observations, and I don't have the time to go looking up research. Have you been around pot much? I'm having a hard time imagining how someone who has could see it as such a dangerous thing. And, even if you convinced me that 50% of pot smokers are addicts (very doubtful), it still wouldn't mean a whole lot to me, because I still see pot as being fairly harmless. What percentage of coffee drinkers would qualify as addicts (using the same loose definition tied to pot smokers)? What should we do about the terrible disease in that case? Coffee prohibition? We'd get the same results that we do with the war on other drugs: more gangs, more killings, lots of wasted tax money, more people in prisons... and tons of people still enjoying their coffee.
Pluto, you raise some good points about alcohol use being more common, which means there are going to be more problems/accidents....but the thing is we know that alcohol is more intoxicating and has a much stronger, negative effect on the motor skills (we've already agreed on this).....therefore if the same amount of people used alcohol and weed, it makes sense that there would still be more problems arising from alcohol and it would still be easier to abuse alcohol because it's been shown to be more intoxicating, more addicting, etc. Marijuana may be quite addicting as well, as you pointed out (although I don't buy that it's more addicting than alcohol either..http://drugwarfacts.org/cms/?q=node/28 ), but if weed isn't making people as intoxicated then it makes sense that less accidents, less physical abuse, etc are going to happen with with weed. It's common knowledge that even people who smoke a lot of weed don't get all tipsy and inebriated like people do who drink a large amount of alcohol. You don't need a scientist or a study to know that if you have two groups of people, and you give everyone in one group their own 12 pack and the other group gets whatever would be considered an equal does of weed for each, the guys who drink the beer are generally going to be in much worse shape physically and mentally afterwards (yes, it depends on the individual, but I'm talking about the average person). You probably wouldn't want to get in car with a member of either group behind the wheel, but based on the way the two drugs work and their track records, you're almost certainly much safer with the guys who smoked the weed, not just behind the wheel, but just being around them in general (less likely to get your ass kicked, etc., lol)......the intoxicating effects of alcohol are just generally more dangerous. And who is to say that the numbers of those using marijuana would increase that much if it were legalized? I actually remember hearing that when they legalized all drugs in Portugal, the number of users actually went down....perhaps because part of the intrigue over illegal drugs for some people is the fact that they are doing something illegal and they get some sort of thrill from that....who knows, but I seriously doubt that the number of marijuana users would ever rival that of alcohol users, even if it were legalized. Smoking in general just isn't as popular as it used to be, and in several states, smoking is banned in bars, restaurants, and other public places, so it seems likely that weed would be the same way, even if legal for private use... so it would never be the same kind of popular social drug that alcohol is. Alcohol is so engrained in our culture that I think it is always going to be the drug of choice in this country.
If marijuana was legalized, do you imagine what would happen to the economy!! Potheads don't exactly make a very reliable workforce. I mean, if ya do it a couple times in high school then it's no big deal, but I know a lot of smokers that do it regularly, and they're not exactly doing very well in school, or in college. Jesus, we'd turn into the most unproductive society in the world!
@ Pluto I don't understand where you are coming from. Could you just explain to me why you think pot should be illegal? I read your "documentation" and really didn't come across anything that paints marijuana as negative. Most articles just talked about short term memory loss, increased heart rate, and possible anxiety. From your own sources: "In practice, the adverse effects of low-level, recreational cannabis use are generally minor" "The adverse effects of cannabis appear overall to be less serious than those of alcohol, in terms of neuropsychological and somatic effects, accidents and violence." And you can't deny the medical value, which alcohol and cigarettes has absolutely none of. "Scientists have confirmed that the cannabis plant contains active ingredients with therapeutic potential for relieving pain, controlling nausea, stimulating appetite, and decreasing ocular pressure. " Watch this too to see a real person whose life was made exponentially better by marijuana use: I just don't see how people find negative things in marijuana. There haven't been any cases of death due to its use, and any really negative effects are incredibly uncommon and aren't even confirmed to be related to the marijuana use. Are you a republican perchance?
are you joking or just stupid? Lets just say 10 percent of people smoke pot regularly, which is probably a high number. If those 10 percent started smoking pot all the time as you think they would, great, they would be fired and our 10 percent of Americans without jobs can move in and everybody gets what they want. But if you really think people would smoke at work, and then not be fired for their poor working habits, then you are an idiot. The situation wouldnt even get to this point; nobody would screw over their job and source of income to smoke pot, maybe aside from a few dumb high school students. It would be like alcohol, you do your job and then meet up with friends after and smoke and have a good time. You think that the 50 percent of americans who drink go to work drunk daily? Idiot.
I was typing up a response to your "rebuttal" when I realized much of this is just too complicated to try and debate over a forum. So I'm just going to save it. Though I must say you are partially correct, I am as well. And by the way, there's no need to get all mad and call people names on forums. You're definitely not on weed right now, lol.
@Rocketman - I was going to answer your questions - but since you need to resort to making this into a political discussion - I will bow out. I am not of the opinion that discussing the merits of a substance is a political decision. The ultimate choice is very political, but a discussion of the health benefits, or harms should be based on facts, not on party affiliation. I guess in your world they are - and I guess in your world people who disagree with legalizing marijuana are republican - hmmm..... I think that your world is very small.. How sad for you... I'm out. Oh - just FYI - here is what the World Health Organization says about marijuana - I don't think they are republican.... Acute health effects of cannabis use The acute effects of cannabis use has been recognized for many years, and recent studies have confirmed and extended earlier findings. These may be summarized as follows: Cannabis impairs cognitive development (capabilities of learning), including associative processes; free recall of previously learned items is often impaired when cannabi is used both during learning and recall periods; Cannabis impairs psychomotor performance in a wide variety of tasks, such as motor coordination, divided attention, and operative tasks of many types; human performance on complex machinery can be impaired for as long as 24 hours after smoking as little as 20 mg of THC in cannabis; there is an increased risk of motor vehicle accidents among persons who drive when intoxicated by cannabis. Chronic health effects of cannabis use selective impairment of cognitive functioning which include the organization and integration of complex information involving various mechanisms of attention and memory processes; prolonged use may lead to greater impairment, which may not recover with cessation of use, and which could affect daily life functions; development of a cannabis dependence syndrome characterized by a loss of control over cannabis use is likely in chronic users; cannabis use can exacerbate schizophrenia in affected individuals; epithetial injury of the trachea and major bronchi is caused by long-term cannabis smoking; airway injury, lung inflammation, and impaired pulmonary defence against infection from persistent cannabis consumption over prolonged periods; heavy cannabis consumption is associated with a higher prevalence of symptoms of chronic bronchitis and a higher incidence of acute bronchitis than in the non-smoking cohort; cannabis used during pregnancy is associated with impairment in fetal development leading to a reduction in birth weight; cannabis use during pregnancy may lead to postnatal risk of rare forms of cancer although more research is needed in this area.
Thats stupid. Myself and a fair few of my friends regularly smoke the odd joint at the weekends. Whats funny is people like you seem to think if marijuana was legalized the economy would become a disaster ! So should we ban alcohol ? I mean 'surely' according to you everyone should be alcoholics ? How about burgers / fast food ? Imagine the amount of missed days at work when people are too ill due to their health and being over 300 lb's to work ? Or the cost to hospitals etc ? Everything in moderation I think is okay. The odd joint is okay, having the odd glass of wine or beer is okay. When people go crazy, eg smoking joints non stop and sounding like Mick Jagger or drinking non stop so they become addicted then thats not good. But what about smoking ? Passive smoking ? Damage to everyones health causing a strain on hospitals etc ? I find it very funny that a lot of people seem to think NOOOO when you mention legalising marijuana but seem totally fine with alcohol not being banned ! Or even coffee ! Coffees a stimulant, you see some people who have to have a caffiene fix everyday or they cant work or stay awake and have to have their cup every 1 hour. Everything in moderation is okay, the odd smoke, the odd burger, the odd drink.
With all of life's real problems, and the state of the state of the economy and the world right now --- if legalizing pot is what you're thinking about, then yeah, you may have a drug addiction going on. I always found it amusing when druggies go on and on about why their beloved vice should be legalized. They get so cerebral and focused, but in the end, all I hear is Southpark's Towlie character asking, "wanna get high?" PS - I think the points about alcohol etc. _are_ valid, and at the end of the day I lean toward libertarianism. But still, you know you really just wanna go get high more often.
@Leothwyn - Sorry, I was wrong on the 50% - Marijuana is the most widely used illicit drug in America. Of the nearly 20 million current illicit drug users, 14.6 million (about 75 percent) are using marijuana.1 Of the 7.1 million Americans suffering from illegal drug dependence or abuse, 60 percent abuse or are dependent on marijuana.2 Of all youth age 12-17 in drug treatment in 2000, nearly 62 percent had a primary marijuana diagnosis.4 Approximately half were referred to treatment through the criminal justice system and half through other sources, including self-referral.5 The average age of initiation for marijuana use generally has been getting younger.6 So, of the 7.1 million that have drug abuse about 4 million use marijuana... so about 35% of the 14 millions.. Other health effects - Marijuana smoke contains 50 percent to 70 percent more carcinogenic hydrocarbons than does tobacco smoke.10 Using marijuana may promote cancer of the respiratory tract and disrupt the immune system.11 Marijuana smokers have a heightened risk of lung infection.12 Long-term use of marijuana may increase the risk of chronic cough, bronchitis, and emphysema, as well as cancer of the head, neck, and lungs.13 Mentions of marijuana use in emergency room visits have risen 176 percent since 1994, surpassing those of heroin.14 In 2001, marijuana was a contributing factor in more than 110,000 emergency department visits in the United States.15 Marijuana can cause the heart rate, normally 70 to 80 beats per minute, to increase by 20 to 50 beats per minute or, in some cases, even to double.17 In a 2003 study, researchers in England found that smoking marijuana for even less than six years causes a marked deterioriation in lung function. The study suggests that marijuana use may rob the body of antioxidants that protect cells against damage that can lead to heart disease and cancer.18 Marijuana affects alertness, concentration, perception, coordination, and reaction time skills that are necessary for safe driving. A roadside study of reckless drivers in Tennessee found that 33 percent of all subjects who were not under the influence of alcohol and who were tested for drugs at the scene of their arrest tested positive for marijuana.20 In a 2003 Canadian study, one in five students admitted to driving within an hour of using marijuana.21 The numbers are citations - and yes, this is from the government - the Office of National Drug Control Policy. Its not simply the trafficking of drugs that causes crime at home and abroad. Crime also results from the behavior of people who have drug dependencies. FACTS: Research shows a link between frequent marijuana use and increased violent behavior.36 Young people who use marijuana weekly are nearly four times more likely than nonusers to engage in violence.37 More than 41 percent of male arrestees in sampled U.S. cities tested positive for marijuana.38 Contrary to popular belief, marijuana use is not a rite of passage. It is a risky behavior with serious consequences. Most of this data comes from Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration (SAMHSA) - which is sort of like the CDC of mental health. They don't have a bone to pick, and their data mostly comes from survey instruments - they survey people, and get answers - they don't just make things up... It is funny - in the mid 1800's a guy named Semmelweis postulated that washing hands helped prevent spread disease and it took almost 50 years before it became a practice - no one believed him... In the late 1800's a guy named Carlos Finlay postulated that mosquitos carried yellow fever - it was 20 years before people believed Walter Reed... People like Jenny McCartney believe that childhood vaccines cause autism, and there are a lot of people that believe her. So, I don't have all the data saying that marijuana is dangerous, but it is certainly not safe - it certainly has harmful effects. Does that mean it should be illegal? For me, I believe so - for other's - they will have a different opinion. Do most people make value judgements based on incomplete information? Probably.. still the sun comes up, and the world goes round, and humanity has not yet destroyed itself... so we shall see. Peace...
So we're all in agreement. Marijuana should stay illegal and since alcohol is worse we should go back to the prohibition. Fine by me!
The problem here is that the people that think marijuana should be legalized are using the wrong argument - that it is safer than alcohol. Well, whether you believe marijuana should be legalized or not I think that there is a preponderance of evidence which proves it is NOT safe. Addiction is addiction whether it is to crack, heroin, alcohol or nicotine. People ARE addicted to marijuana. It is NOT safe. There are studies that prove this. (Pluto listed the most reliable - read them) There are health risks to using it. Not just to yourself but to others around you - this is why smoking has been banned in public areas. Remember when cigarettes first came out the only "side effect" they had was that they "stunted your growth." As time went by and research was studied, many many other ill effects were well documented. Thus the change in policy. To say that legalizing marijuana because it is safer than alcohol is incorrect. How about: The state will be able to tax something that is being sold anyway. Making marijuana legal removes the "forbidden fruit" appeal and would reduce its use among teenagers. Or at least eliminate the economic advantages teenagers have by selling an illegal substance to their peers. Making marijuana legal would take it off the black market and reduce criminal and gang activity around this substance. Hemp could be a valuable agricultural resource if it were legal. I dunno, there is a lot of history of marijuana and hemp usage that goes way way back and the reasons that it was first made illegal were pretty archaic. But no one is arguing that - most of the emotion is that it is "safer" than other legal products. Grasping on to the - if we jump off a 1,000 foot bridge then jumping off a 500 foot bridge is safer - reasoning just shows ignorance. At least make plausible arguments. Two wrongs don't make a right.
I think you missed the point of most of the posts. My point in bringing up alcohol was that the alcohol prohibition was a complete disaster. People kept drinking, and a huge business was handed over to criminals. They're trying the same tactic with marijuana. I think that's relevant in this debate.
I'm having a really hard time squaring all of these statistics with my personal experience. You say these people don't have an axe to grind... They may not support a political party, but being focused on substance abuse and mental health I'd expect that they're dealing with the worst cases, not people like the smokers that I know - people who smoke a little on the weekend, or even a little bit every evening. I just don't see the violent behavior that I see with alcohol or the health problems that I see with tobacco. The 'facts' seem a bit slanted to me. These people are against illegal drugs. It's understandable, but I wouldn't call them unbiased. Marijuana contains more carcinogens than tobacco... How many cigarettes does a tobacco smoker smoke each day? 20? 30? How many joints does an average pot smoker smoke per day? 1/2? 1? Did they take that into consideration? I didn't see it mentioned. Doesn't seem like they're looking beyond what they want to see. Another fact: Research shows a link between frequent marijuana use and increased violent behavior. Is it possible that people living in a really crappy situation are more likely to do drugs and more likely to be violent? I bet you could find statistics pointing to more violence in the poorest inner city neighborhoods. And, you might also find that those people eat more cheap, crappy food. Is it the food causing the violence? Those facts are short sighted and far from objective IMO. And they still don't address my main point here: Prohibition was a failure the first time around... and it is this time too.
If you lean toward libertarianism, seems like you could think of a few reasons for ending prohibition of a fairly harmless drug, aside from just wanting to get high. Personally, I don't even like to smoke pot anymore. All I do these days is alcohol - not very much, and not very often. (Having a new baby, and never getting enough sleep, I'm not too inclined to do anything that's going to make me more tired the next day). Still, I think the war on drugs does more harm than good, and don't like seeing my tax money being pissed away.
What are you talking about? In L.A. all you gotta do is drive down the street! They're all over the place! At Venice Beach you can get a script, walk a couple of blocks, and choose from different dispensaries, as only one example!
