Hmm, this is some really bad news. So I suppose this means lightning connector hdmi is far worse than the older connector hdmi. There is almost no delay when playing with hdmi on my ipad 3. I can see a slight delay in some screenshots, but by looking with the naked eye, it looks instantaneous, or close to it. Surprised we haven't had more complaints from ipad 4 owners of the delay, if it is close to apple tv delay, then yikes! When I play appletv, I notice a huge delay, so much so, that sometimes I wonder if faster paced games are playeable, like Afterburner climax for example. You said lightning connector hdmi is getting close to 80-100 ms latency and appletv is getting 130-150. Wow. They are pretty close. That really sucks. May want to keep my ipad 3 after all must for hdmi play. If the delay is increased that much by the lightning connector, maybe it will be better just to get an appletv and play it wireless. Kinda sad, actually very sad. I hope some improvements can be made for the ipad 5, cause if the delay gets to be too much, I would be very disappointed!
Latency is why I went with the Lightning adapter instead of AppleTV. It is NOT nearly as bad as AppleTV's wireless lag. I don't think it's that bad. Now, there are are hard core gamers who will notice (especially right after playing with zero latency) but for me, I can barely tell even when I try. (Could it vary? From app to app or device to device or moment to moment?) And when I don't try to look for it... I just have fun gaming! It probably has some small % effect on your gaming performance. But I figure the big screen (and iCade) have a positive effect so I'm still ahead! That lightning adapter has a full *nix computer (some stripped-down iOS?) inside, with processor and more RAM than the original iPhone. Supposedly this is for future proofing so it can receive different kinds of future video signals (why? aspect ratio? better digital streams?) and encode them all to HDMI on the fly. Kind of a mystery. But it explains the lag. But I wonder: does the Lightning to VGA adapter work the same way? Probably so (why bother designing Lightning to output raw outdated/analog VGA?) but if not, then there might be no lag. Long shot. Anyway--I was worried, but I'm happy with the Lightning to HDMI performance so far. So I say, put your device off to the side where you can't see it as easily, and just have fun! But if that's not good enough, I have two possible reasons to hope for the long-term future: 1. Does the iOS device create any leg pre-encoding the digital data to send to the adapter? (It was first reported that the data was encoded as wired AirPlay--which could have been a quality concern--but that turned out to be false.) If so, then faster iOS devices will have less lag. 2. Whatever chip is doing the work inside the adapter will eventually be replaced with a faster one. Probably not any time soon, but no chip continues to be sold forever! (Actually, the same hope applies to AppleTV, AirPlay, and WiFi standards.)
Yup, not as bad - according to my (numerous) tests, around 60-70% of that of the ATV. (Also see my benchmark videos at MacRumors.) I did encounter some (but not much) variance in my tests - with the iPhone 5, lag was between 80ms and 100ms. It does as the iDevice must encode the video stream to AirPlay first - and the adapter must decode it. While I haven't benchmarked it, I'm absolutely sure its lag is in the range of the HDMI adapter. The output type (HDMI vs. VGA) should have absolutely no effect on the lag - as was the case with the previous-gen, "dumb" adapters, where both of them had 0 lag. (I've benchmarked this too.) 1, it DOES use AirPlay as the encoding protocol. This is why natively you can't exceed 900p in any kind of video streaming, let it be standard mirroring or direct access by a third-party app to the VGA. (See my XBMC + Lightning-HDMI report, where I present tons of screenshots of this.) The situation in this respect is exactly the same when driving an external monitor over AirPlay. However, AirPlay mirroring is 30 fps only, while the Lightning adapter is capable of outputting 60 fps in both mirrored and directly accessed mode. On prev-gen adapters, you could drive external monitors at true 1080p from your third-party app. 2, some reports have indeed been pretty much unfounded (but not when it comes to the AirPlay protocol itself). This is why I've pointed out in my first post in this # that the Panic article and the "panic-mongering" around it wasn't really right. For example, as I've also elaborated on at MacRumors, the Panic folks show a screenshot image with really bad video compression artifacts around letters. I've very thoroughly tested the adapter and couldn't find any such artifacts.
@Menneisyys, Is there anyway for you to guess what the latency results would be for my ipad 3 compared to your results for appletv and iphone 5? @adams immersive Can you actually see or notice this delay when you are playing? When I see appletv, I can easily see it. On my ipad 3, I can't see it at all, but mu screenshots have confirmed that there must be some milliseconds delay cause we can see it in my screenshots. Have you ever tried to do a screenshot like mine and see the delay? Anyone have an ipad 4 with hdmi tv that can take a screenshot of a fast paced game? This picture is off my ipad 3, you can see a slight delay, but I can't see it by eye.
I don't get it, how almost no one seems to know about hdmi. Read http://m.guardiannews.com/technology/2013/mar/27/iipad-mini-nexus-7-surface-rt-tablet-comparison-review He is under the idea that the only way to connect an ipad is through Appletv. So sad. Why does Apple do nothing to promote their hdmi connector? It is a little strange.
There's zero latency on anything using the old connectors. See my test iPad3 + VGA adapter videos at http://youtu.be/MweTBzIC6dw (RR3) and https://dl.dropbox.com/u/81986513/032013/0316-newHDMItests/LCD-VGAout-ipad3.mp4 (LCD) / https://dl.dropbox.com/u/81986513/032013/0316-newHDMItests/CRT-VGAout-ipad3.mp4 (CRT) Also see my posts at http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=1550766&page=18 for more info. EDIT: note that the RR3 video is a mirrored one; maybe this is why it has a low framerate (RR3 doesn't natively support external displays, this is why it can only be played in mirrored mode). The (as opposed to RR3) native external monitor output of RR2 on the iPad 3 is at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kIVj-1zRA9E . It has no framerate problems, unlike RR3.
I can perceive the Lightning delay with naked eye--but only if I really pay attention (hold the phone in front of the projector to see them both adjacent) and not always then. It might have been a long time before I ever noticed if I hadn't read about it. (But AppleTV's delay is enough to bother me.) I tried it with Zen Pinball today. I consider that a good test since the exact moment you release the flipper matters. I could not perceive any delay while playing, BUT I did notice myself doing less well. So, I didn't feel like I lacked control, but I must have (slightly). But as I kept playing, I could compensate pretty easily. And of course for plenty of games, a little lag (even AppleTV lag) does no harm at all. Instant twitch response is relevant only to certain games--pinball, bullet hell, etc.. Bottom line... sure, I wish there was no lag, on principle! And I'm sure occasionally I'll even score a little lower or die a little sooner, even if I'm not realizing it. But the effect is not huge or "in my face," so it doesn't make the games less fun. I'll forget about it like a dead pixel and keep on gaming!
Unfortunately, being a tech writer doesn't automatically guarantee one actually knows what he's writing about. This is particularly true of absolutely-non-geek platforms like iOS - the tech/ public media is full of people not really knowing much about technology in general. As opposed to geek platforms like Windows Mobile or Symbian was, where tech press people had a much better knowledge, their also being geeks.
Great news, Pocketgamer is reporting that Apple is coming out with a new joystick for ios! Thank the heavens! http://www.pocketgamer.co.uk/r/iPad/Apple+news/news.asp?c=49737 Also the TA thread.. http://forums.toucharcade.com/showthread.php?t=183746 Was kinda wondering how many joysticks that I would need since I own the Gameloft duo gamer joystick, icade core joystick, and will be one of the first to get an Apple joystick. I think the icade core will still be useful caus it has it's own feel and look. But I wonder if the Gameloft duo gamer will work with the new apple protocol.
It seems they won't - see the latest, dedicated piece of news at http://www.macrumors.com/2013/03/29/apple-has-no-plans-for-dedicated-ios-gaming-controller/
But if you look at a lot of my screenshots in this thread (only for fast action games can you see it), some games show a slight delay, maybe a couple of milliseconds, but I think there is some delay. But I can't see it whatsoever. Not sure even if a video camera can see it. One of the fastest pace games I have is Afterburner climax, and as can see in the attached screenshot, there is evidence of a delay. Look at the airplane wings of the main ship. But yeah, it is probably as close to instanteanous as you can get. But I do think it does affect the controls even if very slightly. Seems harder to score high scores when using hdmi than on my ipad. But this maybe due to other factors like seeing the controls and such. But it is gonna suck when I buy and ipad 5/6 and expect for there to be no delay. I am really sad to hear this cause it makes me cry at the thought of upgrading to the lightning connector, when the main thing I want it for is hdmi. So sad. So look at this screenshot, let me know what you think.
Yup - this is what I've noticed too when using mirroring. Once I measured a lag of 50 ms (see http://forums.macrumors.com/showpost.php?p=16955135&postcount=400 ) and sometimes (twice) 0 ms. I'll also test the game you show with my controller. I bet a simple reset / respring will fix these lag issues - I've reset my iPad 3 at least once between the mirroring tests showing a lag of 50 ms and the other tests showing 0 ms. I'll also investigate why the mirrored video was so choppy with RR3 (see my above-linked video) and whether it can be helped by resetting.
As promised, I've run some tests to find out - if mirroring fast action games always suffers on the iPad 3 and whether the iPhone 5 is better in this respect - if there's any lag when using the old, non-active VGA / HDMI adapters. iPad 3 (VGA adapter): http://youtu.be/5pAa2CLJuik (YouTube video shot in 60 fps mode, which means playback is at half the speed at 30 fps) - the mirroring speed is awful on a non-jailbroken device. (As is on a jailbroken one I've tested with both my iPad 3's.) Generally, it's between 5 15 fps in a game like this, while, on the iPad's screen, it's always running at 60 fps. - HOWEVER, I've encountered no lag. A perfect example of the video at 1:20: (full image - a framegrab from the above video - is at https://dl.dropbox.com/u/81986513/032013/0316-newHDMItests/ipad3-mirror.jpeg ) it shows the first frame the other aeroplane in the bottom right corner appears on the screen. It happens in exactly the same moment on the iPad as the external monitor. (This was a fortunate moment as the iPad has chosen that frame to update the external monitor.) iPhone 5 (Lightning-HDMI adapter): http://youtu.be/TalwoKz7bwo (YouTube 60 fps video) - mirroring speed is far superior to the iPad 3: it constantly delivers 60 fps - there is a 6-to-8-frame lag (at 60 fps). A perfect example of the video at 0:53: (original image: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/81986513/032013/0316-newHDMItests/iphone5-other.jpg ) My aeroplane has quickly overtook the other plane still in the center of the external screen. On the iPhone, it's already in the right corner. Another shot, where in the top center of the iPhone's screen you can already see a (from the back) overtooking plane, while there still isn't anything on the external screen: (original image: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/81986513/032013/0316-newHDMItests/ip5-mirror.jpeg )
Repost from the icase case thread Yeah, $35 is a steal for the icade core. Especially cause it feels so rugged and strong, it feels kinda like a $100 stick. For ultraportability, 8 bitty and icade mobile are good. But lots of people have had complaints with button mapping to the start/game select buttons which sucks big time. Others were reporting that it felt flimsy. The icade mobile (pictured) seems like a great alternative, and seems like it works with an ipad too (even though it seems designed more for the iphone), but I could never get any feedback on it here. Even getting info on the core was tough, not many people have them yet, but there has been an incredible amount of interest this week, so I am happy. I got 6 developers committed to trying to implement icade into their games recently, so the future is bright. One thing to note is that not all icade games will work with the icade mobile or 8 bitty!!!! Most all games work with the original or core. Check this website to see which games won't play on the icade mobile or 8 bitty. But yeah, I think I would buy an icade mobile over the 8 bitty cause it is made by ion. http://www.ionaudio.com/products/icade-games Maybe if there anyone that has an icade mobile and plays on an ipad, they can post their experiences. Thanks.
I love the idea of hooking my iPhone (or iPad) up to someone's TV at their house (with or without iCade Core)--or having them over to game at my house. Or using my device with iCade to set up games at a public event for strangers. BUT I have a privacy concern: Every push alert, phone/FaceTime call, and text message I get will pop on the screen for all to see. That not only interrupts the gaming repeatedly, it could be embarrassing.* Do Not Disturb is no help: it only affects sounds--you still get the visual popups. Airplane Mode is fine for SOME games, but others rely on Internet multiplayer, or leaderboards, or something else that would cause errors. (Plus I'd rather have incoming emails/voicemails continue to arrive in the background rather than face a mass download later when I turn Airplane Mode off; and in addition, I'd be afraid I might FORGET and leave Airplane mode on until I next want to surf the web or draft a new email. This has happened before, and I've missed calls for longer than I'd like.) There's an additional problem: if people are gaming on your device, what's to stop them hitting Home and accessing your photos, sending emails under your name, deleting apps, or other mischief when your back is turned? A good "gaming console" should not have privacy questions like this! (Too bad iOS doesn't have Mac-style user accounts and Guest account.) So I thought I'd share the solution: iOS 6 Guided Access mode. Enable it in Settings > General > Accessibility, and set a passcode for getting out of it. (Maybe the same as your unlock code--you don't want to forget it because you can enter GA mode without it, but you can't exit! At least not easily.) Once enabled in Settings, any time you want to enter GA, first launch the game you want, then triple-click the Home button. GA locks you into ONE app; the hardware buttons are disabled, including Home. AND it completely prevents all alerts. And don't expect any help from Siri: it's disabled in GA mode. GA also stops one app from launching others--such as links that open Safari, Maps, or the App Store. (It does NOT stop apps from bringing up the OS's internal cross-app functions, like in-app photo picker and in-app email composer--but few games contain those features.) Advantage: all your incoming communication and alerts keep arriving, privately and invisibly in the background, waiting for you when you exit GA mode. Meanwhile, the app you're in still has full Internet access. And best of all, you can't forget GA is on: as soon as you click the home button to choose a new app, a warning appears telling you to triple-click Home (and then you must also enter the passcode). Disadvantage: you need that passcode to switch from one game to another, which means only YOU, not the other gamers in the room, can do so. (Might be an advantage actually, to keep people from messing up your progress in other games.) Good news for iCade owners: GA doesn't interfere with iCade, and iCade doesn't interfere with entering the passcode to switch apps. Unlike the system keyboard (which Bluetooth controllers suppress), the passcode entry pad pops up regardless of whether iCade is connected. By the way, GA mode also lets you place unique limits (which are remembered forever but can be edited or toggled at will) on each app--like masking out certain parts of the screen to prevent touch inputs, or disabling the accelerometer. Might be useful for some public setups (like to keep people from messing with the game's settings menu). GA was designed for children and certain kinds of disabilities I'm sure, but it's also a great feature for big-screen group gaming! I'll use it when showing iTunes/Netflix/YouTube videos as well. And business presentations. (Yikes! Don't need my clients seeing seeing each other's incoming alerts!) * Examples: a) one of my demented college friends texts me an offensive joke about a marmoset, b) I get an incoming call from "Bowel Health Institute", c) some ridiculous time-gobbling game I'm ashamed of alerts me that "You have a new clone ready to splice," d) a calendar reminder pops up for my date tomorrow... with a friend-of-a-friend's ex, e) a friend's full name and photo appear when he calls, allowing his creepy stalker to find out his last name and spraypaint his house, or f) I get a weather alert for Sao Paulo, revealing to everyone that I will be going on a trip soon and my home will be available to be ransacked. OK, some of these I made up, but still... who can think of all the possible alerts that might be private? Better to shut them all down.
This thread alone has convinced me to make ALL our games iCade but have a special big screen mode. The way I see it is, we can have Wii - U right here, right now with cheap games. Awesome gaming... I'm amazed at some of these setups! Looking into proper splitting the rendering so the phone or ipad could be rendering minimaps or maybe stats and the big screen could just be glorious clear action... with iCade being the forefront. Why isn't iCade more common place? It makes for an awesome little mobile console. Devs should be all over this. I know I am now Connector tipped me off One thing to be mindful of is a lot of tvs have special features for motion compensation or colour correction (sometimes it is just a bad tv) and you can use options to increase response times. Some tvs even have a gaming mode that introduces (!) latency rather than removes it. So it might be worth looking at your tv's options if any. The HDMI cable wouldn't result in much lag I wouldn't think, unless the fault is with Apple and its only mirroring the previous frame's contents. Games typically do not triple buffer so maximum latency from this would be just a frame behind. Must be the TV?
Airplay is a priority. But the game has to have a point to it beyond just moving the minimap to it. I'm thinking Wii -U style stuff. So far, I don't see the point of just using it for the sake of supporting it, the game must be improved in some way by using it.
If I was a developer, I probably would choose not to make airplay a priority. While it is nice, there just isn't all that many people using appletv or hdmi right now and also games for the most part work well with ipad mirroring mode and tv stretch modes, so getting fullscreen can be done. Of course it would be nice if lots of games were hdmi airplay supported games, especially to get native 1080p non stretched pictures, but the reality of the situation is both appletv and hdmi have flaws. Appletv in the lag and delay of signals, hdmi with the bulky adapter. So I kind of hate to say it, but probably the reality of the situation is that for now, it probably wouldn't pay off as a developer to integrate airplay fullscreen or airplay using ipad as a second window. Especially with ipad mirroring working well on hdmi. But heck, I would love more airplay games, was disappointed somewhat that RR3 cameout without airplay or real multiplayer, cause that would have rocked on my tv playing with my friends. Seemed like there was a push about 2 years to make airplay compliant games,but nowdays, games like NFS most wanted and others seem to be taking the approach not to support airplay, which is kinda too bad. Icade core support though, I think will be valueable in the future for sales, and it seems fairly easy to implement, so I would encourage developers to add in icade support cause eventually applet too will have a wireless joystick I believe. One day, I will have my dream of a great ipad console with hdmi tv and a great joystick. Almost there, just still kinda a tech demo. Oh, icade game The Blocks Cometh is free today (pictured) and Tabletop racing is 99 cents. Tabletop racing is awesome on hdmi tv and multiplayer and icade, so get it if you don't have it.
Here's my HDMI out setup: The screen: It's a HP 2035 monitor (Amazon link), and it's quite old, but I hardly find anything as good as this for my usage. The aspect ratio is 4:3, the display itself is matte as well as IPS technology, and it's still relatively high resolution at 1600x1200. Even though it's a 20" monitor, it's actually larger than most 23" 16:9 displays. It's excellent for photography, but it got even better with the iPad. It doesn't have a native HDMI port, but I do have a DVI to HDMI adapter, so connecting it with the iPad is a non-issue. The adapter: Since I have an iPad Mini, I had to go with the Lightning-to-HDMI adapter. I used to have an iPad 2 with the VGA adapter, and I never noticed any lag before. With the Lightning adapter however, like many people, I did notice some lag. It's most noticeable when you're swiping between pages on the homescreen, as the big screen doesn't catch up with the iPad itself. It's probably in milliseconds, so it's not that big of a deal. Luckily, when you're inside the game, the lag almost disappears, and games are very playable. The games/apps: Thanks to the 4:3 screen, ALL apps and games take full screen, so no stretching or zooming is required. And it gets better, because the games are still running at native resolution of 1024x768, so even a game like Real Racing 3 runs without any dropped frames or lag. It's a great experience to see these apps and games run full screen with native resolution and no dropped frames. I'll record a video someday to show you guys what I'm talking about. Because when I connect it to the TV, most mirrored games drop frames badly on the iPad Mini, but when I connect it to this monitor, they work like magic. Enjoy the pics!
