Universal Flashout 2 - (by Jujubee)

Discussion in 'iPhone and iPad Games' started by Sanuku, Mar 26, 2014.

  1. kaptan

    kaptan Member

    Jan 21, 2010
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    Oh boy, i wont spend any cent ob this one... Thx for the other members warning me insta buy this c....! Iam a HUGE wipeOut fan and love this kind of games, and hope that one day a real thing will find a way on my iPhone! Maybe the real Wipeout team will bring it? Whould be AWESOME... So i stay with repulze wich is THE BEST wipeOut expierience on mobile so far...
     
  2. yuk!

    yuk! New Member

    Oct 26, 2012
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    Very disappointing
     
  3. awp69

    awp69 Well-Known Member

    Oct 30, 2009
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    #63 awp69, Mar 28, 2014
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2014
    3/5 from AppSpy which is way too generous IMO.

    And here's where I agree but this is even putting it mildly:

    "This might suggest that races are easy, but this is far from the case. As the light turns green, the other craft shoot off, leaving you playing catch-up for the rest of the race. Its a lazy way to increase difficulty, and one that leaves you cursing shortcomings in your vehicle rather than your skill.

    Flashout 2’s anti-grav racer all look the part, ranging from winged spaceships to narrow manned bullets. You can upgrade your craft, but no amount of fine tuning will ever make it a match for the next class of racer. This results in you constantly saving money to buy a new vehicle, rather than trying to tweak your current ride. This is clearly to incentivise investment in the game’s in-app purchases, but its poor implementation just makes the leveling process disheartening."

    I also agree with an earlier post from the thread that basically said your opponents appear to have unlimited ammo and boost regularly while you have to pay up every time and even then, you're usually outmatched. The review didn't even mention this imbalance (consumables).

    I think a temporary solution would be to greatly reduce the costs of consumables. 500 for a boost? Should be no more than 50. Maybe pay 50-100 for use of a particular weapon (not a bit of ammo but unlimited use of that weapon in that race).

    Personally, the whole system should be scrapped. Opponents and racers put on the same level with power ups, weapons and boosts on the playing field, where it's skill, not how many coins you have (or need to buy via IAPs), to win. Races can ramp in difficulty but not to the point of where it's what you buy that matters. It's how you play.
     
  4. Mike.Jujubee

    Mike.Jujubee Well-Known Member

    Feb 23, 2012
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    The boost gives you a huge advantage over your opponents and there are quite many boosts on the track this is why it costs more than other bonuses - we wanted the game to have a bit of challenge because with 5 boosts you would've won any race on the first lap. But of course as said previously we are collecting all opinions and we will talk about it in the office and take this opinion into consideration:). Or maybe you will double or triple the amount of cash you collect on the track? This should give a similar result;). Anyway we will talk about it and rest assured that future updates will introduce some changes! Cheers!
     
  5. awp69

    awp69 Well-Known Member

    Oct 30, 2009
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    I seriously doubt five boosts would win you any race in the first lap. If four boosts didn't even put me in the position to even SEE my opponent in the first one-on-one race, I just don't think so.

    Interestingly, I went back and played Flashout 3D. I kind of shrugged it off at the time because it unfortunately came out at a time when Repulze really nailed the formula. But going back to play Flashout, other than the better graphics in this game, it was a better game as a whole. Much more fair. Permanent weapon upgrades. No opponents that clearly outmatched you from the start of the race. And most importantly, no consumables.

    It's not just boosts that ruin this game, it's all consumables. As other have mentioned, if you're in a race with weapons, your opponents seem to have unlimited ammo and just keep blasting away and you will die. Add the extemely insulting respawn system and the game is just completely broken as it is. And I don't think I've seen a post yet from anyone who has played the game to any extent that has commended the game's consumable approach.

    It's ashame. Even if you had taken the old system and put it into this game's clearly better graphics and controls, it could have been a winner.

    I'm not sure even with pricing changes that I'll ever agree with the consumable approach, particularly when you race against AI that doesn't seem to have the same restrictions. I don't have enough funds to stand a chance in that fourth race and that's pitiful as someone who has played Wipeout games that were always geared to be difficult. I don't mind challenges. But I also can see when a game is grossly unfair. This is not based on skill. It's based on what you can afford to buy -- even if that means an IAP.
     
  6. Mike.Jujubee

    Mike.Jujubee Well-Known Member

    Feb 23, 2012
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    As we said before we are men of our words and we listen carefully to your feedback:). This is why today we are sending an update of the game which includes some important changes and also fixes a critical bug on the iPad mini. We hope that we will get an expedited review and that the update will be available this weekend for download (it all depends on Apple, but fingers crossed). These are the changes that the update (1.2) will bring:

    - Resolves problem with crashing on iPad mini;
    - Removes respawn countdown timer in races;
    - Doubles the cash amount you get in races;

    - Various gameplay improvements;
    - Minor changes in sound balance;
    - Minor Online Multiplayer mode fixes;
    - Other minor fixes.

    We believe these changes will make your experience better. Of course more updates are coming, but this is all we could do within 24 hours from launch. Anyway you can expect many more updates very soon! Cheers!
     
  7. awp69

    awp69 Well-Known Member

    Oct 30, 2009
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    #67 awp69, Mar 28, 2014
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2014
    These sound good, but is making things like weapons at the very least just a purchase as a whole prior to each race instead of ammo? Like I mentioned, it appears the AI has unlimited ammo and this also is a huge imbalance.

    Doubling the cash sounds good in theory, but if you can't WIN the race then it doesn't help at all. So I'm still not liking the whole consumable aspect of the game and hope that it can be revisited. And if not, please add things like more boost powerups (not just the arrow lanes) as well as weapon ammo on the track itself so you're not just limited to what you can buy. Otherwise, if you're low on cash because you keep losing the race, the other change in payouts is useless.

    I do appreciate you listening to our feedback. I just would like the game fixed as a whole. The list is a good start. I just don't think it will change the overall game. Still think the games focus should be on buying and upgrading ships and not consumables.
     
  8. Mike.Jujubee

    Mike.Jujubee Well-Known Member

    Feb 23, 2012
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    The AI has not unlimited ammo. Some opponents have some ammo at the start, some don't, they can also pick ammo on the track.

    As for weapons/ammo on the track - you can pick-up guns and rockets, these bonuses are there, simply there is one icon for all bonuses, so you can get a nitro, shield, some gun ammo or rockets whenever you pick the violet bonus. In other words - you don't need to buy ammo before each race, you can try to pick it up on the circuit.

    Next thing - the ships. You can upgrade the armor of your ship, the speed, the power of guns and rockets, etc., and it makes a huge difference during races.

    As I said we were not able to implement a lot of changes within 24 hours as you can guess:). However we did the most important things so it should very much improve the experience, actually there are some more changes than the ones listed above. In future updates we will improve the game further so when the update is out let us know if this is the right direction and we will think together what else can be improved!

    Cheers!
     
  9. awp69

    awp69 Well-Known Member

    Oct 30, 2009
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    If that's true, then it's very few and far between. I have trouble winning even a "very easy" race. So it's incredibly imbalanced either way.

    And I can't beat the first one-on-one boss, even with 5 boosts (per your example that you'd always win if you had that many). I know I sound like I'm being difficult. But I'm just being completely honest.

    Upgrading your ship also does not make a "huge" difference, as even the AppSpy reviewer noted.

    For now, it's still Repulze for me.
     
  10. Ayjona

    Ayjona Well-Known Member

    Sep 8, 2009
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    Freelance journalist and writer, amateur musician
    Stockholm, Sweden
    I'm surprised you would try to achieve this by tweaking the monetization and progress model instead of polishing the AI or presenting specific challenges. I'm not necessarily against it in principle, though, since I like it when developers stray off the beaten path.

    In forums such as this (especially in this forum), posters usually have a very thorough and firm understanding of what constitutes pay-to-win, and what falls under the purview of "balanced" or even "fair" free-to-play mechanics. Implying that posters in this thread offer criticism of the payment and IAP model because of a lack of understanding or hasty generalizations is a bit disingenius, and a bit insulting (even though I'm sure you didn't mean it that way).

    But your reasons and explanations notwithstanding: I've been around the TA forums for quite a few years now. And I have rarely seen a premium game (and rather few freemium games as well) criticised as harshly for its IAP implementation. Regardless of the merits of your arguments, I find it very hard to believe that you will reverse this negative publicity and communal sentiment without a change to your current monetization model.

    And, perhaps most important of all: offering players a competitive advantage in online multiplayer through IAP is the great, big, gargantuan no-no of the online competitive freemium paradigm. From LoL, AirMech, Smite, Strife, BLC, Hearthstone, and Tribes: Ascend to Bug Heroes 2 and the Modern Combat series on iOS, all developers hoping to retain a competitive environment follow the same design principles: expediated progress is ok as long as there is a cap (that all competitive players quickly reach), additional balanced units/content/variation is ok, but purchases that offer an actual in-game advantage against non-paying players is not.

    Sell variety, not advantage.

    Money where your mouth is time: stop selling $ as IAP, and implement a second currency that can only be obtained through IAP and is used only for upgrading the hovercraft (in addition to upgrading the craft with $).

    Best of both worlds. Players looking for that shortcut through IAP can still upgrade their racer for real-world money and gain an advantage, but races will be balanced solely around in-game earnings.
     
  11. Mike.Jujubee

    Mike.Jujubee Well-Known Member

    Feb 23, 2012
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    Hi! As I posted above we are releasing an updated version (1.2) which will make some changes to the model and get rid for example of the Respawn Countdown Timer which many players found frustrating (and there are some more changes to this model as stated above). We did what we could do within 24 hours of the launch and we will further improve the experience with future updates, so no worries, this will look much better - the opinions of players are very important to us and as you can see we try to act as quick as possible:). In the case of FLASHOUT 3D not everything was perfect at the beginning but we managed to improve the game thanks to various updates and in the case of FLASHOUT 2 we will also implement many changes that players suggest us with their feedback. Cheers!
     
  12. Habakuk

    Habakuk Well-Known Member

    #72 Habakuk, Mar 28, 2014
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2014
    That's why touchArcade forums are the best. Thanks again, awp69!

    What? This is nothing compared to some IAP discussions here…

    Or make just a simple straight full premium version (and a lite version for being able to try for free) like in the days before iOS 5 or 6 when there were no IAPs possible (or that extra-nasty consumables crap) and everybody was happy. Even happier than now. I'd be very happy to pay €9.99 (or more) for a good hightech wipEout clone with advanced local multiplayer and internal video recording.

    @ dev: You could proudly announce the three ex: No IAPs, no ads, no traps, no extras. Exclusively! Excellent! I'd spread the word, believe me. When I love a good racing game I even can paint the town red. Put your energy in creating tracks and vehicles and not in some bad balanced IAP microcosmos and marketing crap.
     
  13. kaptan

    kaptan Member

    Jan 21, 2010
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    Hamburg, Germany
    Hell Yes! I whould pay even 20-30€ for this!
     
  14. Ayjona

    Ayjona Well-Known Member

    Sep 8, 2009
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    Freelance journalist and writer, amateur musician
    Stockholm, Sweden
    Have the last two-three years of the (d)evolution of the App Store business model and climate snuck you by? ;) That damn near every single iOS gamer who prefers premium over freemium would prefer an expensive and IAP-free version of Flashout 2 is a given. But that model is simply not considered economically viable for most indie developers. Hence the advent of freemium.

    ("Considered", mind you. Perhaps full premium experiences actually still work on a larger scale, or at least in some unique cases, or in some genres (4X and heavy strategy, in particular, seems to get by well on IAP-free, premium experiences), every now and then, or even more than any of us think and dare hope. But an independent developer looking to run a successful business in entertainment software production on the iOS platform takes a sometimes enormous risk if they do not run with current trends.

    But what Jujubee is doing with Flashout 2 is not as much running with currents trends, but pushing premium towards the Farmville and Clash of Clands ends of the spectrum.)

    I, too, would gladly pay 9.99+ for a really good wipE'out"-like (and I'm not even that into the genre, or racers :) ). But I have absolutely no hopes that a developer like Jujubee would consider such a suggestion. And nor should they, if they want to work towards maximizing their chances for profits.

    I don't actually think they'll consider my suggestion either :) But it is, at least, a slightly more viable way to swing the IAP scheme towards a good balance of profit, unblemished game mechanics and retention of competitive balance in multiplayer.
     
  15. JCho133

    JCho133 Well-Known Member

    Jul 27, 2012
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    It may not be heated because of the lack of countless whiny little kids, but it's still being harshly criticized.

    I was really excited for this, but I'm going to hold off and stay hopeful that things will change. I'm anxious to see what the new update brings.
     
  16. Mike.Jujubee

    Mike.Jujubee Well-Known Member

    Feb 23, 2012
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    Sadly you're absolutely right. If we would've set the price to $9.99 and sell it as a 100% Premium title, no-one would buy it (or just a few). $0.99 for an anti-gravity racer which isnt' cheap to develop also is not a good option if you want to keep a reasonable gameplay mechanic (not F2P). Our goal was to find a compromise and we didn't want to make a game with F2P mechanics even though some of you might not believe it ;). We did many focus tests and players did not complain, but of course when the game launches you get a definitive answer. Anyway our intentions are honest and as I stated many times here we want to make the community happy and a good gaming experience is our no.1 priority. This is why we did some changes that hopefully you'll find as a step in the right direction and will much improve the experience. We are uploading the new version (1.2) at this very moment, I will keep you updated and hope you'll enjoy the changes we have made!

    Also if the game was crashing on an iPad mini, this update solves this problem. Stay tuned!
     
  17. Ayjona

    Ayjona Well-Known Member

    Sep 8, 2009
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    Freelance journalist and writer, amateur musician
    Stockholm, Sweden
    Sometimes, it is not good to be right ;) Well, I'll keep my hopes up for the upcoming patch and for future fixes. Thanks for listening to our feedback! :)
     
  18. pinchez

    pinchez Member

    May 9, 2012
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    I love anti gravity racers and would pay a proper premium price for a good wipeout / FZero clone with online multiplayer. I long for the days of free trial and paid full unlock as I believe this was simply the best and fairest way of doing things, I believe Ouya uses this method.

    Is there any way where you could implement a free trail, game + IAPS and a full paid premium unlock to satisfy everyone?

    I'm sorry but I am dead against IAPS and will only download this when it's free, however if it's good and a free full unlock becomes available I'll buy it.
     
  19. Mike.Jujubee

    Mike.Jujubee Well-Known Member

    Feb 23, 2012
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    Well actually nothing is locked within the game - you unlock everything with the progress in your career, there are no iaps to buy or unlock new content. You get money for winning cups and during races and with iaps you can simply get extra money if you want to beat the game faster by getting a new ship quicker, etc. Of course we will take any idea into consideration and discuss it however the model is almost the same as in FLASHOUT 3D in which you could also buy iaps with some extra money, so no differences here. The main difference (not mentioning the Respawn Countdown Timer which will be removed with the next update) is that in F2 you can buy iaps with extra funds before each race and in F3D this was hidden in the main menu, but worked exactly the same and player were not unhappy about it back then;). But let bygones be bygones, we hope the 1.2 update will improve some things and make the experience much better. Cheers!
     
  20. awp69

    awp69 Well-Known Member

    Oct 30, 2009
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    #80 awp69, Mar 28, 2014
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2014
    I don't know how you can possibly say this is close to the Flashout 3D model. Did you have to buy ammo with coins? NO. You could upgrade to better weapons, etc, but you didn't have to buy ammo. Did you need to buy boosts with coins to win races? NO.

    This game is VERY much based on consumable items, which in turn does not mean buying coins is just to have a "shortcut" to better ships. That's complete BS when you keep feeding that same line.

    Games like this should never be consumable based.

    Can you honestly show me one person who can get past then first one-on-one race without using coins for boosts? No. You absolutely can't. And that's the FIRST cup, which should be the least difficult.

    I finally made it past after buying five boosts and even then I was extemely lucky. Because those 5 boosts were not enough. I used all 5 to begin the race and still did not catch up. It wasn't until the last few seconds of the race that I got luck and found another boost. So it took 6 boosts and dozens of tries, losing coins every time.

    That's why I am so frustrated with this game. Why abandon the original model where all boosts and powerups were on the track? And better weapons could bought ONCE and equipped. No need to worry about if you'll run out of ammo. No need to worry about buying more boosts because your opponents were in the same position. That's not the case in this game. The model has changed from saving coins for upgrades and new ships to having to spend coins just to possibly be on the same level as the AI and maybe win races.

    Even with the double money you are changing, I still think the consumable model ruins the pacing of the game and natural state of progression.

    On that subject are the coins you earn on the track going to double at the end of each race? Or only the payout at the end of each cup? Because if it's only the latter, it will have almost no impact on the stupidity of this consumable model.

    TAers, as much as I appreciate Mike responding to our concerns, do NOT believe a word of the PR crap saying this is no different than it was in Flashout 3D. It's ridiculously different and to try to say otherwise is just outright lying.
     

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