Apple KILLS ORGANIC DISCOVERY for INDIE GAME DEVS

Discussion in 'Public Game Developers Forum' started by Storm Factory, May 17, 2015.

  1. jsrco

    jsrco Well-Known Member
    Patreon Silver

    Oct 15, 2009
    2,134
    1
    38
    Coordinator
    Seattle
    The only good thing from this for me as a consumer. I am already spending less on app. But i despise being told what is popular of what I should buy. Which is exactly what the "curated" experience is doing.

    Part of the AppStore and gaming experience on iDevices for me was searching for new apps and getting excited at seeing those games that look good. After 5 years of doing it - I do not have trouble with fake apps or crap.
     
  2. Stroffolino

    Stroffolino Well-Known Member
    Patreon Silver

    Apr 28, 2009
    1,100
    8
    38
    Software Engineer
    Pennsylvania
    I find this deeply disturbing. It was bad enough when Apple replaced "new releases" section on iDevices with "top grossing."

    It's not like games that get featured by Apple are always good, and games that don't get featured by Apple are always horrible.

    itunes was one of the last places Apple-supported places where users could easily browse all new releases.
     
  3. squarezero

    squarezero Moderator
    Staff Member Patreon Silver

    Dec 10, 2008
    13,549
    1,079
    113
    Male
    Chief Strategy Officer
    Salem, Massachusetts, USA
    You are, unfortunately, in a tiny minority.
     
  4. Grumps

    Grumps Well-Known Member
    Patreon Indie

    Feb 2, 2009
    758
    0
    16
    iOS Game Developer
    I noticed this 2 days back as well. While it is great to filter out crapware, it is really bad for indie games in general. With this changes, some random guy who decided to make a game for fun and do not know/nor have the time to market his or her game will now have ZERO chance of being discovered. Even say, he made an amazing game. That is what made App Store indie friendly before.

    In order to be successful after such chance, you need to be able to spend big marketing dollar or mass email review sites that may feature your game. We all know how slim those chances of getting featured by review site are in the hundreds of apps that are made available daily, and even more so getting featured by Apple themselves.

    Pros
    Less crap clones
    Ranked app will sustain their position longer

    Cons
    Death of casual developer
    It is a platform for serious developers only
    It's harder to even get a minor success without luck or money

    I honestly think it's a bad decision for the store in general.
     
  5. copaeci

    copaeci Well-Known Member

    Nov 2, 2012
    1,606
    0
    0
    student, writer, reviewer, beta tester
    ID
    it feels like this change only happened in US App Store only, there's nothing change with Indonesian and New Zealand App Store
     
  6. liteking

    liteking Well-Known Member

    Aug 1, 2013
    74
    0
    0
    Indie Game Developer
  7. Xammond

    Xammond Well-Known Member

    Mar 22, 2014
    168
    0
    0
    UK
    "It is a platform for serious developers only"
    No it is now a platform for The Rich And Famous only.

    "imagine if this Kickstarter campaign succeed"
    If that piece of shit raises a quarter mill I will stop visiting.
     
  8. Stroffolino

    Stroffolino Well-Known Member
    Patreon Silver

    Apr 28, 2009
    1,100
    8
    38
    Software Engineer
    Pennsylvania
    I don't see how keeping an "all new games" category tucked away on itunes hurts anyone. Apple still has their curated sections front and center. Only those few users that are curious to see everything, not just the featured stuff bother going to "all new games." Given how few users use "all new games" for discovery, Apple's decision here probably doesn't much matter, especially given the existence of forums like Touch Arcade.

    For people to suggest that anything not featured by Apple is crap that should be filtered out is insulting. Of my recent efforts, I think Sword & Penguin and King of Up are both respectable titles.

    Apple doesn't sets the bar that high for featuring (they regularly feature indie games), but they have limited slots and unpredictable tastes.

    Developing games is great fun. Even if there wasn't money to be made, most of us would still be doing it as a hobby. This is the real often overlooked reason the AppStore is so competitive/crowded.


     
  9. Xammond

    Xammond Well-Known Member

    Mar 22, 2014
    168
    0
    0
    UK
    So now that those "few users" are disrespected, who shall be the next minority to dump? Who will be left at the end of this perfection quest?
     
  10. Nullzone

    Nullzone 👮 Spam Police 🚓

    Jul 12, 2013
    3,669
    79
    48
    Male
    #30 Nullzone, May 21, 2015
    Last edited: May 21, 2015
    Going to rain on the parade a bit:
    Just from the Apple side of things: If this had been a cashcow, they wouldn't have removed it.

    Does anyone have any hard numbers, or even just good guesses for:
    - How many Appstore users actually used the "New Games" on the frontpage?
    - How many "discoveries" via the above led to a purchase/download?
    - For comparison, numbers on conversion for the other channels, and the (sub)categories.
    (Without numbers to back you up, this is just opinion/speculation; while the tone here seems to treat "this kills indies" as fact.)

    I don't assume that Apple publishes anything tangible, so quite likely all we'll have to work with are educated guesses.
    Did the "New..." sections in the subcategories (e.g. Action, Racing) disappear as well? Or do those still exist for those who see the change?

    Sidenote: That this change apparently wasn't rolled out to all countries looks like A/B and/or acceptance test to me.

    Personally, all I ever use is the "New paid/free" section in my two genres RPG and Strategy. And "free" definitely gets a lot less attention from me than "paid", when I check every 1-2 weeks or so.
    This is only one datapoint/anecdote, of course.
     
  11. Xammond

    Xammond Well-Known Member

    Mar 22, 2014
    168
    0
    0
    UK
    Maybe you're right nobody looked at New Releases. But I think there were people who did as well, similar to those who watch for apps gone free and browse a list, similar also to those who browse the charts looking for something which they might like.

    But, they did look at New & Noteworthy because I was featured in 5 countries for ONE DAY...it did help, a lot.
    Now there are just a few special slots to be featured in by 'lottery winners', plus a few slots at sites like Touch Arcade; for a game's discovery.

    We need something, else almost all games will not be known by anyone at all looking for new games. Nobody goes in to a shop and asks for Unknown item located in Unknown storage location.

    "Can I help you Sir?"
    "Yes, hi do you have any games around the back which I might like?"
    "**** knows, now please leave before I call security and have them bust your arm for asking."
     
  12. Grumps

    Grumps Well-Known Member
    Patreon Indie

    Feb 2, 2009
    758
    0
    16
    iOS Game Developer
    Xammond, that's probably a bad example. Imagine yourself going into a large boutique. You know you're going into the store to check out some clothing. There are always some of those featured clothing that are dressed on the mannequin and the rest of the stuffs that are simply hung in bulk throughout the entire store. So now imagine yourself as one of those random shoppers. You do walk into the store checking out those mannequin. You may or may not like it. But eventually you do look around the entire store and see if you will find something that you will like. And that is the All Apps section that was just removed. All they have now is the store front mannequin that feature ( the stuff they expect you to buy. Everything else is available only if you know what are you looking for and you can ask the store clerk for it (via search).

    So is anyone out here going to suggest that boutiques are better off only with the clothing that are dressed right on the mannequins? Because you assume that nobody will ever like those cheap stuffs folded on the tabletop/hung and never got to be dressed up in the doll (featured).
     
  13. Xammond

    Xammond Well-Known Member

    Mar 22, 2014
    168
    0
    0
    UK
    But you can't browse the App Store. There's no excuse except for yet another money maximizer (TM), it's not like there is a physical space limit to display content like there is in an actual store, where management are far from impartial on what they choose to both stock and feature. Apple can and do what they want, satisfying the share-holder ho hum. They were small guys too once, lucky for them it was a better time where opportunity was available to all that tried rather than today where it is taken away. My one-day of feature was not the only thing that happened that day as some know. But moving on 4 years later and things are worse where the small guy is only indirectly nuked these days.
     
  14. Nullzone

    Nullzone 👮 Spam Police 🚓

    Jul 12, 2013
    3,669
    79
    48
    Male
    Grumps' boutique analogy is quite good, but not completely accurate.
    If I want to buy new clothes, I go to a clothing store; and the example works if you visit a gaming store to browse the shelves for something new.

    However, the Appstore isn't a clothing store only, or a bakery, or office supply.
    It's all that, and more: like an insanely huge mega-mall that has about everything you'll ever need.
    Now, if you visit said mega-mall, and all you need are groceries, do you really browse around the bakery, cleaning products, or newest kitchen utensils?
    Replace those with e.g. Action games, Match-3, Racing , and you have the Appstore.
    The part with the "stuff on display vs. stuff on the backshelf" still applies, though.

    @Xammond: There is a physical space limit: Screen estate. Anything that comes up directly when you open the Appstore has the premium spot. The things at the bottom where you need to scroll tend to get ignored easily (I even read some research with hard numbers on that somewhere, but didn't save the link. And no time for digging.)

    And thanks for the datapoint. Your experience shows that being featured can make a difference (not that I expected anything else) .
    But getting a feature spot is still very different from showing up under "new games": As this is the well-styled showcase with the best lighting and location in the store (to stay with the analogy) , naturally it draws more attention and should result in higher conversion rates.
     
  15. Stroffolino

    Stroffolino Well-Known Member
    Patreon Silver

    Apr 28, 2009
    1,100
    8
    38
    Software Engineer
    Pennsylvania
    My beef with this decision (and time will tell how serious it is) is that while iTunes "new releases" didn't get much traffic (relatively speaking), it's was still enough to drive ~300+ daily downloads for my most recent non-featured apps. The moment those apps dropped off "new releases", daily downloads promptly dropped to single digits. Now, the visibility there isn't much, but it did do several things for me:

    1) get my games into the hands of people that might otherwise never see 'em, so I can get feedback and see leaderboard activity
    2) give me an objective way to see measure much appeal a new app is, relative to other apps I've recently released

    Given that there's no feedback from Apple when they don't feature a game, there's no way to know how close you were to getting that precious feature. (2) is the next best thing.

    I saw a huge drop in new app downloads after Apple replaced "new releases" tab with "top grossing" on the iPhone. It used to be common for me to get 5000-10,000 downloads a day for a new free app. I'm expecting the same to happen with this change.
     
  16. jsrco

    jsrco Well-Known Member
    Patreon Silver

    Oct 15, 2009
    2,134
    1
    38
    Coordinator
    Seattle
    This isn't filtering out crap, look in rpg and pay once and play: the last 4 are what I would consider crap apps that shouldn't be featured. In fact one of them is ripping off zombieville.
     
  17. Nullzone

    Nullzone 👮 Spam Police 🚓

    Jul 12, 2013
    3,669
    79
    48
    Male
    @jsrco: Interesting. I do not see "Pay once & play" in the Dutch Appstore. Not under "Games - Roleplaying", nor on the Store frontpage.

    Does anyone know how e.g. the "What's Hot" part is filled (e.g. number of downloads) ?
    "Bike Overdrive Race-Free Fun Offroad..." sure is an RPG ... and pigs can fly :p
    The RPG category was the most quiet for a long, with sometimes only a handful of releases per week. But even it gets flooded with utter bollocks since maybe 4-6 months, for example tons of "game guides" .

    With Xammond's anecdotal evidence and Stroffolino's numbers I concede the point.
    This will reduce visibility. And highly likely also potential and actual downloads and revenue. Unless you are in a niche where people search specifically (like RPGs or - I don't know, 3D animated cookbooks?), and/or if you do not get a front-row seat by showing in one of the "Best New" or "Featured so-and-so" spots.
     
  18. Grumps

    Grumps Well-Known Member
    Patreon Indie

    Feb 2, 2009
    758
    0
    16
    iOS Game Developer
    @Nullzone: I was meant to apply the boutique analogy to each subcategories. Perhaps, a music store would be a better example. App Store is a megamall and each subcategory are an individual store within the megamall. If you visit a megamall for groceries, yup you won't check out the cleaning / kitchen aisle. A better comparison is a random stroll in a store. You walk around the mall looking for something to do, something to buy. You pass a store that say "Arcade games" (R&B/Soul section). Your choices is limited to "This is recommended to buy", "This is the best selling R&B track". Some people like little niche product, and they wonder around that particular store to find something that interest them. Some people/age-group may find micro casual games (Indie music) as crap and wouldn't consider buying them ever. Some younger group love them. Everyone have difference preferences in music. Unlike, the music industry, game developers don't tour around the country performing in gig and try to get fans and sell our music.

    In short, App Store has effectively eliminated itself as a discovery platform (access is how indie thrive in every industry) and simply became a curated store. This is what we think you should play, this is what we think you should use, this is popular because the publishing giant spent a lot on marketing. Don't bother browsing, we don't think you will find anything there, so just stick with what is popular and recommended for you :)
     
  19. Destined

    Destined Well-Known Member

    Aug 11, 2013
    1,063
    0
    0
    All these analogies seem to forget the app store has a search button. If you can't find what you want it has a search.

    It is the same as a superstore with a small shop front. You can order anything but there is limited promo space which they use to drive downloads to what they consider will attract the most downloads.

    Yes none of these things favour the indie dev. However there are untapped markets. For example the Wii U has less than 100 games (of which quite a lot are ports) but over 10 million units sold. Seems like a good pool to play in as an indie IMO.

    The sheer volume of apps being made makes it hard. It would be interesting if Apple offered a cheap like $100 per app(along with a quicker review) to appear on a new list. I wonder how they would effect a new list.
     
  20. Destined

    Destined Well-Known Member

    Aug 11, 2013
    1,063
    0
    0
    Some game devs do tour around getting people to try their games. It is actually pretty easy to get into small events and have a stand, and not too expensive to get into big events.
     

Share This Page