Apple just shot itself- and the devs too!

Discussion in 'Public Game Developers Forum' started by cramzy, Nov 6, 2009.

  1. Thanks David. I appreciate the info.
     
  2. Harpgliss

    Harpgliss Well-Known Member

    Nov 8, 2009
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    Hi,

    Thanks.

    I do not think any method is perfect but this works well for me, so far.

    It always helps when you can read posts by the developer on the app and see how they respond to issues found by customers.

    David
     
  3. cramzy

    cramzy Well-Known Member

    This became quite a discussion :)
    But, the way I see it now, a few days later, things are like this:
    1. Half the devs agree with Apple's move, the other half doesn't... So, I guess it was not THAT supid from Apple's side...I just happened to be from the "other half".
    2. Indeed, after this change, new apps have better chance at being seen. I can tell from experience, that if your app doesn't make it to Top 100 in these 2-3 days while it's visible at some level, it can never make it there...you can see app's potential for 1-2 days, and after this move your app has a better chance at being seen for such a long time.

    - Iliya
     
  4. Harpgliss

    Harpgliss Well-Known Member

    Nov 8, 2009
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    Hi,

    To reply to the topic at hand, I see a lot of worrying and people getting their knickers in a knot over something that has not happened yet.

    I usually wait to give myself an ulcer until there is a reason for me to have one.

    Just not sure there is a reason here, yet, anyways.

    David
     
  5. cramzy

    cramzy Well-Known Member

    Hi David,

    As I said in the original article I posted on our website, I spoke to Apple representative who's relatively high in the hierarchy. He's the one who told me about this change, and judging by what I see for the past couple of days, I think he didn't lie to me.

    Cheers,
    ILIYA
     
  6. Harpgliss

    Harpgliss Well-Known Member

    Nov 8, 2009
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    #126 Harpgliss, Nov 8, 2009
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2009
    Hi,

    Since you mention the article on your website, I thought I would respond to a few points you make.

    Why would you stop developing for a format that reaches so many potential customers?

    Really, I think developers, if they can, should try and develop for multiple formats.

    Again, if possible, why limit yourselves?

    I am hearing this is in response to developers releasing updates that are not really needed, just to get a sales boost and abusing the system.

    I see you making a lot less money on either format you mention, but that is your choice.

    Developers, and I am not being specific here, will have to rely on being a little more inventive in their apps and a little less lazy.

    Customers, as the quantity of apps increase, are getting choosier.

    This will only make that moreso.

    Developers start to put less of an effort into the quality of the apps they produce, they will lose out and force themselves to switch to another format to develop for.

    Something known as a self fulfilling prophecy.

    The number of apps decrease? Good!

    There are too many worthless apps in the appstore now so if those developers move on and their apps are no longer in the appstore, great news for the customers and the developers that stay.

    I am no big fan of Apple but not being able to see into the future, how can you say this is a bad decision?

    If you are so dissatisfied with the structure and policies of Apple, maybe it is time for you to change formats.

    I am not saying you need not speak out on this or other things about Apple that bother you.

    Just saying that you must, or should have known how they run things and made a long term choice to deal with their policies, lame as they may be.

    I do think this is a way to maybe make things better for customers and developers, but this is just how I see it.

    You are totally entitled to your opinion, just as I am entitled to disagree with that opinion.

    I do hope this will be a good thing and it helps both the customer and developer.

    David
     
  7. EssentialParadox

    EssentialParadox Well-Known Member

    Sep 21, 2009
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    UK / Toronto
    I apologize, I think the thought of developers not bothering to fix bugs made me overreact with my comments.

    I think there's still value in adding new features in updates. TouchArcade still posts about updates (Which is in fact the way I personally find out new updates to games, rather than the iTunes homepage.)

    Even if website promotion from an update isn't enough to make it worthwhile, I would personally suggest following the Halo model on the Xbox: You can release new levels/maps/content as DLC packs for a small fee - $2.99, or whatever - and then make it free to all other customers after a year. The hardcore players will spend the few dollars to get in early, the casual players will benefit after a year. The end result is that everyone will think of you as a developer who cares about your customers. So I think there is still value, and even financial benefit, in adding features to your games.
     
  8. EssentialParadox

    EssentialParadox Well-Known Member

    Sep 21, 2009
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    In the sense of getting free updates to old games, no it doesn't. But I find there is a definite benefit to both devs and consumers in that they get a less-cluttered 'new releases' list in iTunes, where a game will sit in that list for a few weeks instead of a few days.

    Instead of getting continually pushed into that list by updates, now you get a longer stay in that list when you first release your app. It's unfortunate for those devs who have already released apps before this change, but if you were just due to release a new app, I think you'd be very happy about the change.
     
  9. EssentialParadox

    EssentialParadox Well-Known Member

    Sep 21, 2009
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    That was the effect I predicted after this change. I didn't expect you to stay on the front page for a matter of days, though! - Let's hope it stays that way and results in very good sales for you, Glenn. :)

    Well, to give an example of recent searches I've made:
    - "Tenori-on" (a yamaha instrument)
    - "platformer"
    - "horror"
    - "FPS"
    - "city building"
    - "simulation"
    …then I'll just browse the results. The search bar allows for discovering groups of games that might exist in a specific sub-genre that isn't defined in iTunes.

    But I do understand what you're saying, if it's a completely new style of game people won't be searching for it, in which case you need shelf space on sites and on the iTunes front page. But hopefully you should get that now developers will be getting a longer stretch in the "new releases" list.
     
  10. aaronsullivan

    aaronsullivan Well-Known Member

    #130 aaronsullivan, Nov 8, 2009
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2009
    These comments about how individuals search are not very useful to a developer. Why? Because these are comments from people who regularly read TouchArcade and _furthermore_ participate in discussions on the forum. This type of person (while wise and passionate) is about as far from an average consumer as one can get. Right?

    Anyway, I tend to see this as a step in the right direction. Objectively from afar I think everyone can see that the update churning is sort of an artificial construct. The problem isn't this new change but a more fundamental one: How do apps continue to get noticed in a store full of 100,000 apps.

    Every developer and consumer (whether each knows it or not) would benefit from a better system of connecting consumer wants with the right selection of apps. It's just not an easy problem to solve.

    I think the genius thing is a step in the right direction. It seems to get a very interesting batch of apps that aren't necessarily on the other lists and it's good for discovery -- it even reminds the consumer of some apps they may not have played for a long time. It's not very prominent, though. It should be UP FRONT. I know that it sorta kinda _is_ but I always miss it.

    I do wish there was a genius option in the non-iphone iTunes App Store -- if there is one and I'm missing it, then it is very, very hidden. It could be smarter, too. You could click on a game and find more apps like THIS one. (Why not add that to the iPhone, too?) Isn't that the most natural way? I like this game, but I'm done with it, I wonder what else is out there that is like it... click. Only there is no fast/easy way to do that right now.

    SHORT VERSION: If deep satisfying app discovery was easier for the user, we wouldn't care about this issue. :D
     
  11. Uptown Arts

    Uptown Arts Well-Known Member

    I don't know how this factors into the discussion, but the release date category seems to be near-random atm. Somebody go have a look and let me know if you can make out a pattern.
     
  12. jlanis86

    jlanis86 Well-Known Member

    Oct 9, 2009
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    Apple is trying to deliberately confuse us - it's part of their strategy. ;)
     
  13. Flickitty

    Flickitty Well-Known Member

    Oct 14, 2009
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    You know what I'd like to see? A shuffle category. Each time it is refreshed, a different list of Top 10 shows up.

    I have the feeling I am missing a LOT of cool games simply because the developer didn't know how to market the game, got discouraged and the game was buried. I've seen this happen a lot over the years.
     
  14. Twitchfactor

    Twitchfactor Well-Known Member

    Apr 27, 2009
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    25+ Year Game Developer
    Somewhere between Genius & Insanity
    So let me get this straight...

    Developers have to release products that aren't BETAs and do micro-updates to boost their rankings and do constant bug fixes?

    There'll be less apps in the store because people who can't game the system need to move to a platform they can?

    Apps of low quality will drop off the lists faster, because of no ability to cheat the system with update spam?

    Wow, this all sounds horrible from the perspective of a developer that wants to do quality work, doesn't feel like constantly supporting a COMPLETE game and someone who has the ability to sell in-game add-ons.

    Game on.
     
  15. jlanis86

    jlanis86 Well-Known Member

    Oct 9, 2009
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    Someone in the official developer forums has posted an email received from Apple which essentially confirms the rumor:

    In the meantime, there's still no public announcement from Apple, and the App Store remains to be riddled with problems.
     
  16. cramzy

    cramzy Well-Known Member

    Yup, I got reply from them earlier today. This is the complete message:
     
  17. Uptown Arts

    Uptown Arts Well-Known Member

    Wouldn't it be great if it re-shuffled when you shook the phone?
     
  18. Flickitty

    Flickitty Well-Known Member

    Oct 14, 2009
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    YES!

    I'll admit that with over 100,000 apps, this could be difficult to pull off, and probably something that we would never see. Over the last couple weeks I've asked questions and found links on this forum that led to some truly interesting games. If I only paid attention to the current top lists, i would have missed these.

    Back in the day on Pocket PC was an interesting game called Nutcracker, by a programmer named Jacco Bikker (very talented guy). I think his game got lost in the shuffle of all the other crap that was coming out.

    Nutcracker was solid, though. I'm pretty sure there are a few titles like this on iPhone.
     
  19. khangtoh

    khangtoh Well-Known Member

    May 31, 2009
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    Co-Founder/IPhone Dev @ LeftRight Studios
    Pittsburgh, PA
    #139 khangtoh, Nov 10, 2009
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2009
    This is a great move by Apple. First off, developers shouldn't update apps just to bump themselves onto the Release List. This should kill off a bunch of spammy apps.

    Our new game is in review and that's certainly good news and I really hope this new scheme gets implemented before our game is approved!

    In addition, I would suggest to Apple to remove apps that received no updates for apps over 6 mths to remove them as "dead" apps - sorry for the this ;) but i call that Garbage Disposal!
     
  20. mobile1up

    mobile1up Well-Known Member

    Nov 6, 2008
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    Technical Director
    Munich, Germany
    this is stupid - especially if the application is implemented and no additional updates are required (bug fixes = definitely); but, there is no contractual obligation for any developer to continue working on games and add new features to them. once complete; it could be a very good game for many year.
     

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