wesnoth-logoIn the turn-based strategy world, few games are as vast as Battle for Wesnoth [App Store]. Originally released as an open source project in 2003, Wesnoth has collected a massive following of fans that contribute to the code base, create new art and sound assets, and/or write the campaigns themselves.

The computer game is a free download, and will run on Windows, OSX, Linux, and several other more obscure operating systems like the AmigaOS4 and OpenSolaris. Its system requirements are modest enough that the game will run on nearly any computer made in the last five years, and because of this Wesnoth seems to be a favorite among netbook gamers.

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Kyle Poole, along with the support of countless fans, decided to take on the massive task of bringing Wesnoth to the iPhone. After months and months of work, Battle for Wesnoth is finally available for turn based strategy fanatics on the App Store. If you look at the game strictly with regard to its faithfulness as a port, it's absolutely phenomenal.

Nearly everything from the original has been preserved on the iPhone, and instead of just simply one or even two campaigns like most similar games, Wesnoth's initial release comes with 14. These 14 campaigns consist of nearly 200 individual scenarios which will provide hundreds of hours of playtime as you wage war in the mystical land of Wesnoth with multiple different battle locales, races, factions, and classes.

Like most turn based strategy games, utilizing your units intelligently along with taking advantage of the benefits offered by different types of terrain is key in winning any battle. These terrain types work exactly as you would expect-- For instance, units attacking from forests are harder to retaliate against than units standing on open ground. I could go on detailing the various parts of the game, but they've already done that and then some on the Battle for Wesnoth wiki which I really recommend checking out before either downloading the free computer game or the iPhone version.

691963_5Unfortunately, while the game is a fabulous port of the original, not many concessions were made in its first release to make it a good fit for the iPhone. Most of the UI elements seem to be taken straight out of the PC version, with buttons and widgets that are often far too small to comfortably or accurately hit. Also, the different campaign levels themselves can take upwards of 30 minutes and needing to take a single phone call means losing all your progress since the last time you manually saved your game.

Normally these kind of things would really make me think twice before getting involved in an iPhone game that seems to forget that many people will be playing it on their phone, as interruptions will likely be unavoidable. Not only that, but reports of game performance on previous-generation devices have ranged from decent to unplayable.

Wesnoth's saving grace that has me on the verge of disregarding many of its flaws is its amazing implementation of multiplayer. Not only can you play online, but you can also play against the desktop version of Wesnoth. iPhone games with online multiplayer are few and far between. But iPhone games that not only have online multiplayer but also complete cross-platform compatibility are a rare find indeed.

Developer Kyle Pool is actively participating in the Battle for Wesnoth thread and plans to release an update soon addressing most of the issues mentioned above along with other complaints of forum members. Largely because of the spotty performance on devices other than the 3rd generation iPod Touch and iPhone 3GS, it is probably a good idea to hold off on buying Battle for Wesnoth until these issues are ironed out and the update is released.

If you're willing to put up with these issues to play the game now, your perseverance should be rewarded with the most in-depth turn based strategy game available for the iPhone. If this is your genre, Battle for Wesnoth really is a game that you must experience, if not on your iPhone then on your computer.

App Store Link: Battle for Wesnoth, $4.99

TouchArcade Rating

  • Zyloch

    AWESOME, I CAN'T WAIT. This is the ultimate Fire Emblem type turn based game, ever remade.

  • Zyloch

    AWESOME, I CAN'T WAIT. This is the ultimate Fire Emblem type turn based game, ever remade.

  • http://www.viekoslavia.com/ Vieko Franetovic

    The controls are wonky on the iPhone and it could run a bit faster. I'm sure Kyle and his community will get it in top shape soon ;) Congrats on the release.

  • http://www.viekoslavia.com/ Vieko Franetovic

    The controls are wonky on the iPhone and it could run a bit faster. I'm sure Kyle and his community will get it in top shape soon ;) Congrats on the release.

  • BdragonST

    on the review, it said you lose your progress when you get phone calls.. it is not true, because the game actually AUTOSAVE every single turns you play.. lol... other than lags and maybe controls(i dont have any problem with it thou), this game is amazing.

  • BdragonST

    on the review, it said you lose your progress when you get phone calls.. it is not true, because the game actually AUTOSAVE every single turns you play.. lol... other than lags and maybe controls(i dont have any problem with it thou), this game is amazing.

  • Brinkman

    Huge fan of Hex based games. There aren't enough on the iPhone.. I hope there's a lite version of this game.

  • Brinkman

    Huge fan of Hex based games. There aren't enough on the iPhone.. I hope there's a lite version of this game.

  • GodSon

    Eli thank you for giving Battle for Wesnoth some front page love. Justice is served...

  • GodSon

    Eli thank you for giving Battle for Wesnoth some front page love. Justice is served...

  • tw00si

    There's always Romance of three kingdoms for hex turn based strategy game.

  • tw00si

    There's always Romance of three kingdoms for hex turn based strategy game.

  • http://www.thegamelessplayed.com Dominic White

    This definitely has some performance issues at the moment, but it's decent enough for a turn-based game, at least on my 3GS. Still, the sheer volume of content here (again, it launches with 14 campaigns, each of which are 10-25 missions long, and each mission can take over an hour, and that's before even TOUCHING multiplayer/skirmish modes!) makes it worth the money. That, and it encourages Kyle to keep up with the updates.

    Word is that the first big update to the game will include another 25-mission campaign with its own ton (200ish, I think it was?) of new unit types.

  • http://www.thegamelessplayed.com Dominic White

    This definitely has some performance issues at the moment, but it's decent enough for a turn-based game, at least on my 3GS. Still, the sheer volume of content here (again, it launches with 14 campaigns, each of which are 10-25 missions long, and each mission can take over an hour, and that's before even TOUCHING multiplayer/skirmish modes!) makes it worth the money. That, and it encourages Kyle to keep up with the updates.

    Word is that the first big update to the game will include another 25-mission campaign with its own ton (200ish, I think it was?) of new unit types.

  • MrMuesli

    Honestly, I'm a little miffed with myself for not holding back on this one. My fault I guess. The lure of the excellent pc version sucked me in.
    The scrolling is very poor (Touch 3G). Highly frustrating.
    No zoom in or out (I don't think the pc version has it, but it really needs to be there for the iDevice) coupled with big maps (relative to Rogue Planet) makes for very claustrophobic and unintuitive game play.
    Rogue Planet is a breath of fresh air in comparison. Granted, BfW has more depth etc etc. but honestly right now I'd gladly sacrifice depth for something more iDevice sentric.
    Kicking myself (again!) for not waiting until this obvious 'work in progress' gets the up-dates it needs and deserves.

    • MrMuesli

      More annoying stuff to report:
      1) Text disappears off the side of the screen.
      2) Why give me tips on game play as the game loads, and then give me no time to read it?? I LOATH it when I'm only given the chance to barely read the first sentence before being thrown into the game. Where's the 'Press to continue' button??
      3) The UI is so un-user friendly it boggles the mind. You need eyes as keen as a hawk to read the text, and fingers a small as a pixie to hopefully touch the right bit. And why would you restrict touch scrolling in the menu and help sections etc to only the scroll bar??
      I understand if it's not possible (for whatever reason) to not completely redesign the UI for the iDevice, but you could at least do the bare minimum. Right now it is so off putting, not to mention the lag in scrolling and selection in general. It's more tiring to play right now than fun.

      • BdragonST

        about #2... i honestly think your ipod/phone loads game FASTer than average persons' or you read SLOW... English is my third language but i dont have problem reading whole thing on loading screen.. lol ;)

      • MrMuesli

        BdragonST - Funny guy! Whether I am a slow reader or not, a 'tap to continue' would be a real blessing. It may seem petty, but when combined with all the other niggly things it adds up. Really looking forward this game getting the tlc that it deserves.

    • reply

      Those claustrophobic Rogue Planet maps are the main reason I did not like that game. There needs to be room to fight and engage in strategy. I don't want to play SimTraffic just trying to fit my units into the small number of available tiles while only the unit in front of the line gets to fight.

      • MrMuesli

        So true, but that for me is a different issue - one of map design. In BfW the map designs are great, I just feel like I can only see them in bite size pieces.

  • MrMuesli

    Honestly, I'm a little miffed with myself for not holding back on this one. My fault I guess. The lure of the excellent pc version sucked me in.
    The scrolling is very poor (Touch 3G). Highly frustrating.
    No zoom in or out (I don't think the pc version has it, but it really needs to be there for the iDevice) coupled with big maps (relative to Rogue Planet) makes for very claustrophobic and unintuitive game play.
    Rogue Planet is a breath of fresh air in comparison. Granted, BfW has more depth etc etc. but honestly right now I'd gladly sacrifice depth for something more iDevice sentric.
    Kicking myself (again!) for not waiting until this obvious 'work in progress' gets the up-dates it needs and deserves.

    • MrMuesli

      More annoying stuff to report:
      1) Text disappears off the side of the screen.
      2) Why give me tips on game play as the game loads, and then give me no time to read it?? I LOATH it when I'm only given the chance to barely read the first sentence before being thrown into the game. Where's the 'Press to continue' button??
      3) The UI is so un-user friendly it boggles the mind. You need eyes as keen as a hawk to read the text, and fingers a small as a pixie to hopefully touch the right bit. And why would you restrict touch scrolling in the menu and help sections etc to only the scroll bar??
      I understand if it's not possible (for whatever reason) to not completely redesign the UI for the iDevice, but you could at least do the bare minimum. Right now it is so off putting, not to mention the lag in scrolling and selection in general. It's more tiring to play right now than fun.

      • BdragonST

        about #2... i honestly think your ipod/phone loads game FASTer than average persons' or you read SLOW... English is my third language but i dont have problem reading whole thing on loading screen.. lol ;)

      • MrMuesli

        BdragonST - Funny guy! Whether I am a slow reader or not, a 'tap to continue' would be a real blessing. It may seem petty, but when combined with all the other niggly things it adds up. Really looking forward this game getting the tlc that it deserves.

    • reply

      Those claustrophobic Rogue Planet maps are the main reason I did not like that game. There needs to be room to fight and engage in strategy. I don't want to play SimTraffic just trying to fit my units into the small number of available tiles while only the unit in front of the line gets to fight.

      • MrMuesli

        So true, but that for me is a different issue - one of map design. In BfW the map designs are great, I just feel like I can only see them in bite size pieces.

  • AddictArts

    I find it unfortunate that the gpl'd source is not available. I love to support games that come from open source. I have purchased each one. So, as soon as I can checkout the src I will purchase. And I am not talking the src for Win, OS X, etc. And I know about iwesnoth.sf.net which has a big zero when browsing the code.

    • AddictArts

      Thanks Kyle for making a zip of the src available, see comments from him below. This is a good start and I stand corrected now. Off to purchase the game.

  • AddictArts

    I find it unfortunate that the gpl'd source is not available. I love to support games that come from open source. I have purchased each one. So, as soon as I can checkout the src I will purchase. And I am not talking the src for Win, OS X, etc. And I know about iwesnoth.sf.net which has a big zero when browsing the code.

    • AddictArts

      Thanks Kyle for making a zip of the src available, see comments from him below. This is a good start and I stand corrected now. Off to purchase the game.

  • eatmosushi

    The fact that you'd release a game that runs so sluggish and poor is rather terrible. I understand your websites, "it's free so if you don't like it take a hike attitude", but I paid for this, and I expect it to be a fully functional piece of software.

    I expect an update within the next 24 hours or I will be asking for a refund.

  • eatmosushi

    The fact that you'd release a game that runs so sluggish and poor is rather terrible. I understand your websites, "it's free so if you don't like it take a hike attitude", but I paid for this, and I expect it to be a fully functional piece of software.

    I expect an update within the next 24 hours or I will be asking for a refund.

  • dete

    I am incensed that they are releasing an open-source port at this price point. I can understand 99c to cover their costs, but $5 seems like a cash grab. If you buy this game remember that the money is NOT going to the people who wrote most of it.

  • dete

    I am incensed that they are releasing an open-source port at this price point. I can understand 99c to cover their costs, but $5 seems like a cash grab. If you buy this game remember that the money is NOT going to the people who wrote most of it.

  • FattyChance

    Wait a second. Before you criticize Kyle too much...understand...

    The profit from this will be poured back into the game to make it better. Kyle has said that they will be donated back. Second of all, as an owner of the software, I have a legal right under the GPL license to now demand the source code from Kyle.

    This wasn't really ready for release, but, I expect that it will be made ready and can really help the project as a whole.

    This is a whole new type of game and it really is amazing in its scope and quality on computers. Once Kyle cleans up I have no doubt that it will be the best turn based strategy game on the platform.

    I so very much had wanted it to be better right up front....but I view the $5 as a donation to the project and a nod to how much I have enjoyed it over the years.

    Besides which, I begged for a port.

    • eatmosushi

      This is not a whole new type of game.

      Fantasy General was a whole new type of game.

      Which worked, as expected, when I paid money for it.

  • FattyChance

    Wait a second. Before you criticize Kyle too much...understand...

    The profit from this will be poured back into the game to make it better. Kyle has said that they will be donated back. Second of all, as an owner of the software, I have a legal right under the GPL license to now demand the source code from Kyle.

    This wasn't really ready for release, but, I expect that it will be made ready and can really help the project as a whole.

    This is a whole new type of game and it really is amazing in its scope and quality on computers. Once Kyle cleans up I have no doubt that it will be the best turn based strategy game on the platform.

    I so very much had wanted it to be better right up front....but I view the $5 as a donation to the project and a nod to how much I have enjoyed it over the years.

    Besides which, I begged for a port.

    • eatmosushi

      This is not a whole new type of game.

      Fantasy General was a whole new type of game.

      Which worked, as expected, when I paid money for it.

  • dete

    A donation is voluntary. Charging $5 on the App Store is not a donation.

    Tons of people have contributed code, art, level design, etc. to this project under the assumption that it was a free, GPLed project. The developer of the iPhone project has done a ton of work here, and I would be okay with a 99c app to pay for his part in the process.

    I would probably also be okay with the Wesnoth project charging $5 for the port.

    I'm not okay with some guy making vague promises about donating his proceeds to the Wesnoth project. Even if he believes it himself, it's not going to be easy to sign over all those cheques, especially if they are in the thousands.

    • Kyle Poole

      Not to be rude, but who are you to critize this port's merits? It is the official iPhone port and has the full authorization, support, and backing of the Wesnoth founders. Please get your facts straight before posting such complete rubbish.

      • dete

        Who am I? That's not the question. The question is: Who are you!?

        I didn't post without research. I looked at the Wesnoth home page - no reference to an "official" iPhone port. I looked (briefly) at the Wesnoth forums - I saw a post expressing similar concerns to my own, asking for some sort of confirmation that this was a sanctioned port. No response that I saw at the time.

        I checked your other submissions to the app store. While I can't speak to the merit of "Kyle's Quest", your "Wow Dancers" and "Dream Cars Sexy Shoot" applications seem to be App Store gold-rush cash grabs based on on exploiting other people's content.

        My credentials don't matter, but yours do and I see no evidence that you have support from the Wesnoth community to be charging $5 for their work.

      • Kyle Poole

        Okay self-appointed Wesnoth guardian, the wesnoth.org website has been updated and a forum post made by the founder confirming this port's status. I won't hold my breath for your apology...

      • dete

        As a person who has contributed to open source in the past, I'm especially sensitive to the notion that someone else would profit from my work without due consideration from the core team responsible for the project. I didn't make my posts without checking the official web page and forums, so I feel no need to apologize for voicing my concerns. Nor do I feel the need to apologize for responding to your rude comment with some rudeness of my own.

        With all that said, I do wish to thank you for your effort porting this fantastic game to such a limited platform. I can't imagine it was anything but a lot of hard work. I appreciate your frustration at being questioned after putting in all that effort, and I hope you'll see things from my side: We really only had your word that it was official.

        Thanks again, and congratulations on seeing all your hard work ship.

      • dete is an idiot!

        Dete, you are an idiot, and should apologize. You have zero class.

  • dete

    A donation is voluntary. Charging $5 on the App Store is not a donation.

    Tons of people have contributed code, art, level design, etc. to this project under the assumption that it was a free, GPLed project. The developer of the iPhone project has done a ton of work here, and I would be okay with a 99c app to pay for his part in the process.

    I would probably also be okay with the Wesnoth project charging $5 for the port.

    I'm not okay with some guy making vague promises about donating his proceeds to the Wesnoth project. Even if he believes it himself, it's not going to be easy to sign over all those cheques, especially if they are in the thousands.

    • Kyle Poole

      Not to be rude, but who are you to critize this port's merits? It is the official iPhone port and has the full authorization, support, and backing of the Wesnoth founders. Please get your facts straight before posting such complete rubbish.

      • dete

        Who am I? That's not the question. The question is: Who are you!?

        I didn't post without research. I looked at the Wesnoth home page - no reference to an "official" iPhone port. I looked (briefly) at the Wesnoth forums - I saw a post expressing similar concerns to my own, asking for some sort of confirmation that this was a sanctioned port. No response that I saw at the time.

        I checked your other submissions to the app store. While I can't speak to the merit of "Kyle's Quest", your "Wow Dancers" and "Dream Cars Sexy Shoot" applications seem to be App Store gold-rush cash grabs based on on exploiting other people's content.

        My credentials don't matter, but yours do and I see no evidence that you have support from the Wesnoth community to be charging $5 for their work.

      • Kyle Poole

        Okay self-appointed Wesnoth guardian, the wesnoth.org website has been updated and a forum post made by the founder confirming this port's status. I won't hold my breath for your apology...

      • dete

        As a person who has contributed to open source in the past, I'm especially sensitive to the notion that someone else would profit from my work without due consideration from the core team responsible for the project. I didn't make my posts without checking the official web page and forums, so I feel no need to apologize for voicing my concerns. Nor do I feel the need to apologize for responding to your rude comment with some rudeness of my own.

        With all that said, I do wish to thank you for your effort porting this fantastic game to such a limited platform. I can't imagine it was anything but a lot of hard work. I appreciate your frustration at being questioned after putting in all that effort, and I hope you'll see things from my side: We really only had your word that it was official.

        Thanks again, and congratulations on seeing all your hard work ship.

      • dete is an idiot!

        Dete, you are an idiot, and should apologize. You have zero class.

  • Chad

    This game really needs a pinch-zoom out...the minimap is way too tiny to touch to move around the map and manually scrolling is tiresome because the maps can be pretty large

  • Chad

    This game really needs a pinch-zoom out...the minimap is way too tiny to touch to move around the map and manually scrolling is tiresome because the maps can be pretty large

  • Ricardo Dawkins

    This game is open source.

    Why he is asking $5 dollars for an unfinished and unpolished Wesnoth port?

    I can get a netbook or a Nokia N810 and play a *free* open source version of wesnoth without having to pay $5 dollars that he will pocket instead of sending it back to the Wesnoth community.

    I'm with "dete" on this.

  • Ricardo Dawkins

    This game is open source.

    Why he is asking $5 dollars for an unfinished and unpolished Wesnoth port?

    I can get a netbook or a Nokia N810 and play a *free* open source version of wesnoth without having to pay $5 dollars that he will pocket instead of sending it back to the Wesnoth community.

    I'm with "dete" on this.

  • SourceCodeGuru

    Yeah the BS saying, the source is not ready for distribution is a complete cop-out and probably lie. Remove your signing files, and zip it up. Done. Sick of these scum compiling open source products releasing them on the iphone and pocketing a huge chunk of change. The license agreement does not say - release it when you feel ready, it states you must release it along side your commercial release.

    Titles I can think of off-hand that are guilty of this on the app store. Frodo iPhone (c64) Flashback and now this. I am sure there are plenty more.

    Scum of the earth, liars and BS artists.

    • Kyle Poole

      Okay take a breather and calm down guy lol... I provided the source to the Wesnoth founder last week. I'm having some problems uploading everything to sourceforge right now, but you can download the zip from http://www.kylepoole.com/wesnoth/wesnoth_src_20091118.zip
      As I have said all along, this is the official iPhone port with full authorization and support from the Wesnoth project. I have already worked on it for 5 months fulltime, and will continue to work full time on this project because I believe it is a great game! :)

      • BdragonST

        yeah i love this game!

      • AddictArts

        Thanks Kyle and this is reasonable. FYI Tyrian, Methan Bros, and X-Pilot are based off open src code and both those apps do provide the src.

    • Annoyed at the winers

      Stop your wining and do some better research. Flashback has been available on github since it was released: http://github.com/scarnie/REminiscence-iphone

      Don't forget that the people who have picked up these projects potentially spent months preparing them for delivery on the iPhone and invested their own time and $$ (Mac, iPhone, dev subscription)

  • SourceCodeGuru

    Yeah the BS saying, the source is not ready for distribution is a complete cop-out and probably lie. Remove your signing files, and zip it up. Done. Sick of these scum compiling open source products releasing them on the iphone and pocketing a huge chunk of change. The license agreement does not say - release it when you feel ready, it states you must release it along side your commercial release.

    Titles I can think of off-hand that are guilty of this on the app store. Frodo iPhone (c64) Flashback and now this. I am sure there are plenty more.

    Scum of the earth, liars and BS artists.

    • Kyle Poole

      Okay take a breather and calm down guy lol... I provided the source to the Wesnoth founder last week. I'm having some problems uploading everything to sourceforge right now, but you can download the zip from http://www.kylepoole.com/wesnoth/wesnoth_src_20091118.zip
      As I have said all along, this is the official iPhone port with full authorization and support from the Wesnoth project. I have already worked on it for 5 months fulltime, and will continue to work full time on this project because I believe it is a great game! :)

      • BdragonST

        yeah i love this game!

      • AddictArts

        Thanks Kyle and this is reasonable. FYI Tyrian, Methan Bros, and X-Pilot are based off open src code and both those apps do provide the src.

    • Annoyed at the winers

      Stop your wining and do some better research. Flashback has been available on github since it was released: http://github.com/scarnie/REminiscence-iphone

      Don't forget that the people who have picked up these projects potentially spent months preparing them for delivery on the iPhone and invested their own time and $$ (Mac, iPhone, dev subscription)

  • http://www.wesnoth.org David White

    Hi everyone,

    I'm the founder and lead developer of Wesnoth. I just wanted to clarify some things that have been said on this thread:

    Kyle's port is the officially endorsed port of Wesnoth, Inc. the non-profit corporation which oversees Wesnoth development. I apologize for us not having put an update about the port on the Wesnoth website to prevent any confusion about the status of the port.

    Kyle has an agreement with Wesnoth, Inc. under which we think the best is done for the Wesnoth project, to encourage future development of Wesnoth.

    With respect to some comments about the quality of the port, from my perspective, Kyle has done a stellar job of porting Wesnoth to the iPhone. Wesnoth is a large and complex application, and I thank him for his commitment to continuing to develop and improve Wesnoth on the iPhone.

    With regard to the source code, Kyle has provided me with the source code, and is making it available to all. He is fully complying with the terms of the GNU GPL.

    If anyone would like any clarification regarding any of this, they are welcome to contact me through my username (Dave) on the Wesnoth forums.

  • http://www.wesnoth.org David White

    Hi everyone,

    I'm the founder and lead developer of Wesnoth. I just wanted to clarify some things that have been said on this thread:

    Kyle's port is the officially endorsed port of Wesnoth, Inc. the non-profit corporation which oversees Wesnoth development. I apologize for us not having put an update about the port on the Wesnoth website to prevent any confusion about the status of the port.

    Kyle has an agreement with Wesnoth, Inc. under which we think the best is done for the Wesnoth project, to encourage future development of Wesnoth.

    With respect to some comments about the quality of the port, from my perspective, Kyle has done a stellar job of porting Wesnoth to the iPhone. Wesnoth is a large and complex application, and I thank him for his commitment to continuing to develop and improve Wesnoth on the iPhone.

    With regard to the source code, Kyle has provided me with the source code, and is making it available to all. He is fully complying with the terms of the GNU GPL.

    If anyone would like any clarification regarding any of this, they are welcome to contact me through my username (Dave) on the Wesnoth forums.

  • Cool Game

    this game is awesome, anyone who says else is a hater.

  • DubiousLegality

    However you dress this up he is distributing a GPL application that is restricting the user who downloads it from being able to redistribute the binary. He may charge for it but HE MAY NOT stop anyone redistributing it. It doesn't matter if it's apple who had caused this or himself, this violates the GPL and the rights of all those who have contributed to the game. Think if I did this for xbox for instance, put it on a DVD, charged for it and didn't allow it to be copied. I would be in violation of the GPL. So are you.

  • http://profiles.google.com/darth.cyclohexane Darth Cyclohexane

    I played Wesnoth a few years back on the PC and if anything I am enjoying it even more this time around. I have some stability issues on my older-gen iphone, but overall this port is absolutely stellar; I would go so far to say it's my favorite game on the platform at the moment. This was clearly a labor of love for Kyle, $4.95 is peanuts, and he deserves every cent of it. The detractors here and elsewhere are self-righteous posers and should be disregarded.